tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post4232702954766431056..comments2024-03-27T13:09:13.855+05:30Comments on Life in IISc: RankingsGiri@iischttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11819278945207995261noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-23300078297323701942011-06-21T17:18:19.534+05:302011-06-21T17:18:19.534+05:30This is incredible advice!Very insightful and stra...This is incredible advice!Very insightful and straightforward.!@bose<br /><a href="http://www.samplemessages.in/" rel="nofollow">Messages</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-37117104805356808322010-09-16T20:00:52.918+05:302010-09-16T20:00:52.918+05:30Not a single Indian university in the list of 200 ...Not a single Indian university in the list of 200 by THES..kind of demoralising for any student..<br /><br />Hope the ranking of engg. and tech schools salvage some pride..<br /><br />On a side note.. after being educated at one of the universities that has made it in the top 200 (way down though), I can say that the faculty interaction, knowledge (things that matter to a student) are much much better at the IIX's..<br /><br />Money makes crucial differences I suppose.. <br /><br />-RGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-36795070818298042762010-09-05T22:36:47.940+05:302010-09-05T22:36:47.940+05:30To Anonymous:
``His spouse has much poorer record ...To Anonymous:<br />``His spouse has much poorer record compared to the person itself.''<br /><br />A little addition: He also did entire masters and PhD work for his spouse ..so it is expected that the record of the spouse is poor...as he could not manage to do so many things simultaneouslyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-70670564422981360682010-09-05T00:57:17.796+05:302010-09-05T00:57:17.796+05:30The same person also managed to get a job as assis...The same person also managed to get a job as assistant professor for his spouse in some other department at IIT/Bombay. <br />For Info: His spouse has much poorer record compared to the person itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-43518631240711710612010-09-04T15:38:11.617+05:302010-09-04T15:38:11.617+05:30Dear Anon,
I kindly request you to close the disc...Dear Anon,<br /><br />I kindly request you to close the discussion regarding the promotions. This post is on rankings of institutes, not on individual promotions. As I have written before, several factors other than research can go into assessing performance and potential of a candidate. While these parameters of productivity are good at the institute level, it may not be applicable at an individual level. Further, an institute can not survive on faculty with research excellence alone. They also need faculty like me who will sit on so many committees and do institute work !<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />GiridharGiri@iischttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11819278945207995261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-77286472469048568512010-09-04T12:46:31.631+05:302010-09-04T12:46:31.631+05:30I am Anon @Aug 28 12:01. Let me clarify that the p...I am Anon @Aug 28 12:01. Let me clarify that the person listed in the website is still marked as assistant professor, though he has been promoted to associate professor last month. His profile: joined IITB in 2007, published two papers of the post doc work with post doc advisor as corresponding author in 2008 and nothing else. Got promoted in 2010. So, if you take 2005-2010, he has more than 5 five publications but not a single paper from IIT-Bombay as affiliation. I am his neighbour and know him well. This is just an example. I can give you a list of such professors from IIT-Delhi. <br /><br />See<br /><br />http://unfairpromotionsatiits.blogspot.com/2009/11/bloats-on-iit-system.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-74749551020620086092010-09-04T11:01:37.381+05:302010-09-04T11:01:37.381+05:30Anon @Aug 28 12:01 claims that (in) "IIT-Bomb...Anon @Aug 28 12:01 claims that (in) "IIT-Bombay, recently, a faculty was promoted from assistant professor to associate professor with ZERO publications"; the IITB Chemical Engineering website does not bear this out. There are 30 faculty members listed, 16 professors, 6 asso profs and 8 asst profs. Every one of the asso profs has about 10 papers in the last 5 years and the asst profs each have about 5 papers in the last 5 years and there is no one with zero publications. Perhaps, the original poster meant zero papers in some particular calendar year or some such.iitmsriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16063826764366606345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-73351790101491495222010-09-03T23:47:27.054+05:302010-09-03T23:47:27.054+05:30Anon Sept 2 7:24 PM states that several postings &...Anon Sept 2 7:24 PM states that several postings "claim there are examples of assistant professors with 0 publications being promoted". I would very seriously doubt the accuracy of such claims. I checked out IITB Chemical Dept website as there is a claim that someone with zero papers was promoted associate professor - I could find no such candidate in the web site. Maybe, zero publications over some check period ... At IITM, a candidate with zero journal publications would not be considered for assistant professor. Of course, there is some exception possible, if the candidate worked in some defence lab, for example, and had done a lot of work but nothing in open literature. I have found selection committees to generally consider many factors, and not just a single metric like number of papers.iitmsriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16063826764366606345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-18940289119624563062010-09-03T09:37:03.460+05:302010-09-03T09:37:03.460+05:30"Finally, the contract appointments at iits d..."Finally, the contract appointments at iits don't have any meaning, as someone suggested it is an automatic rollover to the permanent post."<br /><br />How is the contract appointment at IIT different from IISc? As someone else pointed out, it seems to be an automatic rollover in both cases. The only difference seems to be that the contract appointment in IITs is 3 years while it is five in IISc. There is no word called tenure in IISc context or this word is mentioned anywhere.<br /><br />NCBS and a few other institutions, however, have tenure. Not IISc/IIT/NIT. All these institutions have contract appointments for varying periods but seem to automatic rollover.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />GiridharGiri@iischttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11819278945207995261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-24492829065919988222010-09-03T07:38:12.338+05:302010-09-03T07:38:12.338+05:30@Prof. Giri:
"I hope the top univ in Canada ...@Prof. Giri:<br /><br />"I hope the top univ in Canada does not have tenure"<br /><br />Snide remarks aside, I am not worried abt the tenure in Canada as much as I do in IISC because <br />(1) IMHO, if I don't get tenure, the chances of getting another job anywhere in the world (including India) are much brighter - can that be said of IISc? - your esteemed opinion might be different<br /><br />(2) I'll at least have some significant savings (imagine getting 35000 p.m in Bangalore, and if you are asked to leave at <br />the end of 5 years, what will you be left with?) <br /><br />(3)I believe the univ in Canada has far more transparent and consistent policies for tenure and promotions - My experience <br />with IITB doen't give me any confidence in the Indian system in this aspect.<br /><br />(4)from a personal perspective, I've got a fully equipped lab with assured funding for 3 years - so i can start some work right away - not so easily possible in India<br /><br />I didn't mean IITs, NITs etc should have the same rules for everything - however, i believe policies for life and death <br />situations like throwing someone out of a job can't be left to individual discretion at different univs in the Indian context, esp. when the salaries and every other benefits are the same. I'd have had no complaints if IISc pays 10 times more and throws someone out after 5 years. You say IISc also comes under ugc - why doesn't then any univ under ugc have this <br />policy, which is definitely more appropriate to them than IISc? <br /><br />Finally, the contract appointments at iits don't have any meaning, as someone suggested it is an automatic rollover to the permanent post.<br /><br />regards<br />KRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-39903251649921686472010-09-03T01:54:21.728+05:302010-09-03T01:54:21.728+05:30@above
sorry for the typo. it must have been &quo...@above<br /><br />sorry for the typo. it must have been "but ts good to know promotion depends on performance."<br /><br />May be not anymore, after seeing your link :-).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-78558682432432545282010-09-02T21:11:20.719+05:302010-09-02T21:11:20.719+05:30"but ts good to know promotion depends on ten..."but ts good to know promotion depends on tenure."<br /><br />What do you mean promotion depends on tenure? There is no tenure.<br /><br />Also, the cases of professors with less than 30 publications in their lifetime is not uncommon. actually it is very common. You do not need to believe it..you can check the webpages of faculty in these "premier institutes" No need for belief. <br /><br />See<br /><br />http://unfairpromotionsatiits.blogspot.com/2009/11/bloats-on-iit-system.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-69832369354408108602010-09-02T19:24:24.719+05:302010-09-02T19:24:24.719+05:30@iitsriram
I was the anon your replied to. Many ...@iitsriram<br /><br />I was the anon your replied to. Many comments in these columns claim there are examples of assistant professors with 0 publications being promoted; professors with lifetime 10-20 publications and so on. My comment was based on those, but ts good to know promotion depends on tenure. <br /><br />For someone extremely motivated, I agree that being in US or India or any incentives just does not matter. He/She goes to do his/her best. For others, I am not sure how you can just "leave" other two points I raised, on salary and tenure. However flawed they may be, do they not play an important role in raising research standards? Added to that we lack a critical mass of good scientists, and you know the long list that many people have come up with :-).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-14167437014414301172010-09-02T17:46:40.324+05:302010-09-02T17:46:40.324+05:30Anon Aug 27 10:22 PM said "On the other hand,...Anon Aug 27 10:22 PM said "On the other hand, within the Indian context where tenure, salary and promotions are not dependent on research quality/quantity/metrics ...". Wow! There is no tenure system in India, so that part of the statement is irrelevant. Salary is fixed and with fixed annual increments (except in the case of promotions), so OK, leave that alone. But it is a rather unjustifiable claim that in the Indian context, promotion is not dependent on research quality or quantity or metrics. In the IIX's, promotions are very much dependent on these, I believe.iitmsriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16063826764366606345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-8414184693756184022010-09-02T16:26:53.432+05:302010-09-02T16:26:53.432+05:30Dear KR,
Why are you scared of Tenure. All the go...Dear KR,<br /><br />Why are you scared of Tenure. All the good universities in US follow this system. Infact the criteria for IISc tenure is not very demanding at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-614252623562568642010-09-02T11:05:10.885+05:302010-09-02T11:05:10.885+05:30Dear KR,
I will not respond to your comment on &...Dear KR, <br /><br />I will not respond to your comment on "but this 'tenure' thing scared the hell out of me, to put it honestly" I hope the top univ in Canada does not have tenure.<br /><br />However, your comment<br />"What i don't understand is how can iisc and IITs, both being under MHRD, have different norms for appointment - and that too only in this particular aspect? " is intriguing.<br /><br />So, you mean NITs, IITs and IISc should have same rules for everything because we get the same salaries? The appointment for NITs and IITs are only through interview. For example, there is no "promotion" to associate professor in NIT/IIT, one has to appear for an interview against a general advertisement. The mode of promotion in IISc is entirely different. Also, there are several differences between NIT and IIT on recruitment, "promotion" etc. After all, NIT is also run by MHRD. <br /><br />There are several differences between IIT and IISc. IISc is not an Institute of national importance, also come under UGC. Some older rules of UGC are also in place.<br /><br />Oh, finally, the appointment in IITs also are on contract basis these days...so your statement "but the possibility for termination)still exist" also exists in IITs<br /><br />Best wishes,<br /><br />GiridharGiri@iischttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11819278945207995261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-57928361278983934382010-09-02T09:53:27.375+05:302010-09-02T09:53:27.375+05:30Anon@8:05 am: "not a single person has been t...Anon@8:05 am: "not a single person has been terminated.."<br /><br />Might be very well true, but the possibility still exist. What i don't understand is how can iisc and IITs, both being under MHRD, have different norms for appointment - and that too only in this particular aspect? What if someone goes to court?<br /><br />For the record - I'll be joining a top univ in Canada and have an informal offer from IITK. Being a south Indian, I'd love to join IISc and was seriously considering to apply at one point - but this 'tenure' thing scared the hell out of me, to put it honestly. The long wait times for promotion at IISc was another issue.<br /><br />KRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-43828315851409609512010-09-02T08:05:15.787+05:302010-09-02T08:05:15.787+05:30In principle, yes. But not a single person has bee...In principle, yes. But not a single person has been terminated on this issue.<br /><br />Heck, recently, a person in chemical engineering with ZERO publications in five years was granted "tenure". <br /><br />So, yes, IISc can terminate one after five years but not for lack of publication or teaching. Maybe if you shoot the director !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-76725530817939525252010-09-02T02:21:07.666+05:302010-09-02T02:21:07.666+05:30Last Anon - there is no tenure system in IITs, but...Last Anon - there is no tenure system in IITs, but IISc has something similar - you get only a 5 year contract in the beginning. They can terminate you after 5 years in IISc, while it is a permanent appointment in IITs, salary and all other benefits being the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-5989855091423383782010-08-31T18:12:40.477+05:302010-08-31T18:12:40.477+05:30You are not skeptical but you are insulting scient...You are not skeptical but you are insulting scientists like Prof. Madras.<br /><br />Oh, by the way, there is no tenure system in IISc/IIT.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-17771403803155140172010-08-31T18:04:42.005+05:302010-08-31T18:04:42.005+05:30Learn cut and paste and you have a voluminous and ...Learn cut and paste and you have a voluminous and impressive resume. Citations may help, especially if you are looking for tenure.<br /><br />Do I appear skeptical? Not by a long shot. My eyes have seen things.....mysorianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03654457448972590590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-27100197035256095392010-08-29T16:43:51.883+05:302010-08-29T16:43:51.883+05:301. Your statement "None of these metrics are ...1. Your statement "None of these metrics are "normalized" in any way." is wrong. ESI is field dependent and normalized. The classification is based and normalized on citations in that field. Thus, a top 1% scientist in mathematics will have much lower citations than a top 1% scientist in chemistry/biology. For example, Vijayakumar whom you mention is in the top half% of scientists but not Prof. Balaram though the latter has much more citations than the former. Similarly, NCBS and inst. math. sci. work in different fields and are appropriately compared. <br /><br />2. Your statement on h-index and citations is also flawed. It has been well established in literature that Nc=A*h*h. Nc is the total number of citations, h is the h-index and A varies from 2.5-5 for most the cases. Do the number of citations and divide by h^2 for many professors you mention and you will find A varies from 2.5 to 5. Studies of over 10,000 scientists with h-index of 20 or more showed the above trend and it is also reasonably known in which field it is around 3 and in which fields it is around 5. There are several papers published on this aspect of Nc versus h in scientometric journals. There are also papers published on indices that includes a composite of citations per paper, number of papers, h-index and normalized to the subfield.<br /><br />3. Are metrics available that can capture breakthrough or consistent and/or long-innings? Yes, there are. There are indices for individuals and institutions. For example, they are based on the number of top 1% cited papers in the field, top 5% etc. Unfortunately, as you see, they are based on citations and publications though they remove citations accrued to review papers and method papers. <br /><br />4. You said "Citations are no good when looking at any university beyond 50 (ie., small);" Therefore, unless one believes that citations and publications are some measure of research productivity, it is very difficult to develop indices based on subjective opinion. I do believe that citations and publications are a good measure when it measured for large group of individuals and universities and certainly for countries. This is because large groups will have individuals who publish a lot, get cited a lot; publish a lot, get cited less; publish very few, get cited a lot and publish very few and not be cited.<br /><br />5. Your comparison of Sehwag, Dravid and Tendulkar is not appropriate. All are considered excellent cricketers. You may want a treble, and thus pick Sehwag; So, what? Nobel prizes are not given to the person who has the highest h-indices. However, people who have good h-index are probably good researchers but have not achieved anything close to a Nobel prize.<br /><br />The anon comment at 3:39 am<br />"I find this entire debate that tries to assess the quality of a researcher without using any credible evidence of it, tending to the absurd." is probably the best and should end this discussion.<br /><br />BTW, I never said many professors were deadwood etc. These are your statements and not mine. Research productivity is not everything in an institution. You need good teachers, excellent administrators who run hostels, serve on many committees etc. Ranking of an institution may depend on citation etc. but running an institution requires all kinds of dedicated faculty. You do not need to call them scholars (as someone else alleged) but to call them deadwood is an insult. <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />GiridharGiri@iischttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11819278945207995261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-87062289970469989432010-08-29T11:40:06.118+05:302010-08-29T11:40:06.118+05:30Giri, the anon you replied to.
You seem to be ma...Giri, the anon you replied to. <br /><br />You seem to be making inferences that was not intended! For example, I did not say that somehow IISc deserves to be at position 51. I was merely pointing out to the shortcomings of the metric.<br /><br />Does IISc have deadwood professors? Plenty. There are too many mediocre here. Do I have any sympathy for the "scholars" at IISc and IIT with 10 publications and a citation index of 100? None at all.<br /><br />However, this has nothing to do with the fact that the metrics are naive. Here is a simple example: you have a h-index of 27 (from your site). This accounts for 27*27 = 729 citations. The total number of citations you have is 3068. So the h-index "explains" less than 25% of your citation. This also means that only 1/8 of your papers have a citation more than 27 (216 total papers). Now, it is likely that in your area, 1/8 is doing much much better than an average; which bring one to the culture of different areas/sub areas as well. None of these metrics are "normalized" in any way. <br /><br />Btw, just for the record, I am your average scientist/engineer with 20 odd publications, an average citation of about 40, and max citation near 250. As you can see, we come from vastly different cultures and mindset. <br /><br />I looked at my numbers only yesterday, and checked a few other people in the dept etc and was surprised how favourably I stood in comparison! Based on what I saw, I agree with you on this: IISc/IIT can do much much much better.<br /><br />Based on this 24hr experience, my preliminary view of a "good scientist" would be: <br />1) max citation of about 500 or above, (breakthrough; this number is again area dependent)<br />2) average citation of about 20, (consistent)<br />3) a total citation of over 3000 (long innings)<br /><br />Vijay Kumar (ECE/IISc) has a paper with 630 citations and that paper was a breakthrough. Manindra Agrawal has a similar max citation number. <br /><br />Balaram has a paper at 500. CNR Rao has a few at 500 and one at 1000. GNR has 2 over 1000 and 2 near 500! But I am not qualified to judge their merit. It may be interesting to know of other examples-- say 20 -- along with the experts in the area saying why they are breakthroughs.<br /> <br />Are better metrics possible which can capture breakthrough/consistent/long-innings? I hope so. By the way, just for fun, I calculated the h-index on Tendulkar, Dravid, and Sehwag; 72, 65, 47 resp. But when we want that triple, we have to look at Sehwag!<br /><br />PS: Nothing is to be taken personally. You said healthy debate and here is one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-91718383192305073482010-08-29T03:39:33.433+05:302010-08-29T03:39:33.433+05:30For any research contribution to be considered goo...For any research contribution to be considered good, its goodness should firstly be verifiable. Goodness has to be assessed objectively, not subjectively by the author alone. And therefore it is the responsibility of the author to publish his work in a medium that gives it the widest possible chance for critique. <br /><br />Secondly the goodness of the work has to be certified by the scientific community. The author should be able to produce evidence of goodness either in terms of statistics such citations etc, or in terms of opinions of reviewers and leading people of the field. To claim that a contribution is "good" without any is simply unscientific.<br /><br />I find this entire debate that tries to assess the quality of a researcher without using any credible evidence of it, tending to the absurd.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6061089355607754501.post-55716156117031242252010-08-28T21:52:15.010+05:302010-08-28T21:52:15.010+05:30But what is good research contributions? How many ...But what is good research contributions? How many times have we heard that the scholar has published only 1-2 papers in a decade but those papers should have been published in science or nature. But the researcher did not send it there because he wanted to support indian journals. It did not get cited because it is a Indian journal that no one reads and is not even available online. But the paper is a very important research contribution. The only problem is that no one has read it (other than the scholar himself, hopefully)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com