Wednesday, September 16, 2009

New pay scales


The new pay scales have been notified by MHRD for IIT/IISc/IISER. The major change (and excellent news) from the previous notification is that assistant professors will move to PB-4 after three years of service. However, if my interpretation is correct, only
people with 3 years experience and Ph.D can be recruited as assistant professors. This is not good because engineering departments will find it difficult to find candidates with three years experience.

Update: I had been travelling and did not have access to internet to post the fitment table for new AP. Knowledgeable readers like iitmsriram please correct the table, if you find anything wrong. I have not included allowances like HRA (30%, if you live in metros), academic allowances, telephone reimbursement etc. TA quoted here is based if you live in metros. Please note that the years need not be post-Ph.D, it could be any experience except the experience during your Ph.D

Continuous increment of 3% of Basic+AGP will ensure that one will reach the end of the scale of 67,000 at the end of 23 years, if never promoted (see orange columns). If promoted to professor under the IISc scheme of 6 years as assistant professor followed by six years as associate professor (see green columns), one will reach the end of the scale at the end of 21 years. The only difference will be in the grade pay.



PS: IITMsriram points out that the 3% increments are to be rounded up to the next highest multiple of 10 so that the pay will always be a multiple of 10. But because the table is generated in spreadsheet in google docs, I do not know how to do it automatically.

184 comments:

Anonymous said...

Interesting. What about an Assistant Professor with 3 years post-PhD experience? Will they be hired in PB-3 or PB-4?

Bharat

Anonymous said...

It is clear that the entire exercise by MHRD has just been an eyewash. They have not been made any changes except removing an anomaly. In terms of pay it appears, there is no difference if someone joins an NIT soon after M.Tech as an Assistant Professor and gets a PhD through QIP route to reach PB-4 and someone who joins
IIT after a Ph.D and Post-doc. Can the same be said about the expectations and academic load??

Anonymous said...

Finally, the gentlemen at MHRD have shown who the bosses are. This logic about IIT professors getting high paying jobs in industry is sounding like broken record of sahgal-saab. Are bhai, even IAS officers can get great MBA type salaries if they go to the private sector. With Govt. job, there is power and prestige.

Take your new salary and enjoy the prestige. Plus, salary is not that little, a lot of people earn lot less than you. be happy. and congrats on yor pay hike!

Anonymous said...

I'm concerned because the Lecturer's post hasn't been scraped. What happens to newly appointed Assistant Professors who don't have the three years post-Ph.D. experience? Will they now be re-appointed as Lecturers? Or is this "three year" rule applicable only to people who will be interviewed in the future!

-- NP

Anonymous said...

giridhar

where is your fitment table now.. earlier u took no time to post it.. why r u taking so long now.. wont u like to see existing asstt. profs. getting salary similar to u.

iitmsriram said...

Actually, the requirement of three years experience for appointment as assistant professor is not new and exists at least from 4th pay commission days (which is the limit of my knowledge). It is only that IIT's have been creatively interpreting the experience to include the TA/RA that one does while pursing a PhD full time. The ministry has now cracked down on this. With this, a fresh PhD in engineering will be hired as assistant professor on contract with a minimum pay of 20140 + 6000 grade pay going upto 7000 grade pay after one year. With three years experience on this or otherwise, the position will be 'regular' assistant professor with minimum pay of 30000 + 8000 grade pay. After three more years of experience at this level, the post is auotomatically upgraded to minimum pay of 37400 + 9000 grade pay. At this point, one is also eligible to become associate professor at minimum pay of 42800 + 9500 grade pay.

iitmsriram said...

This is about difference between NIT and IIT; if one joins NIT after MTech, the career track is entry at 6000 grade pay; after 6 years, grade pay is 7000 and after another 5 years it is 8000 and after another 3 years, it is PB4 and 9000 grade pay; if there is a PhD, the step size is reduced to 3 years so even if one had PhD at entry, it will be PhD + 9 years to reach PB4. In IIT, PhD + 3 years is 8000 grade pay moving to PB4 and 9000 after another 3 years or PhD + 6 years. So, there is a difference of at least 3 years to reach the same pay stage. Also, at IIT, at this stage one is eligible to go to next pay stage i.e., apply for Associate Professor at 9500 grade pay.

Giri@iisc said...

Dear IITSriram,

Thanks for your clarifications. Please do keep on writing. Your comments are very useful.

Also, eligibility to become associate professor will vary, I think. For example, in IISc, it is six years as assistant professors to be eligible for associate professor (exceptions are rare). In IITs, it is by advertisement and one may spend 4-6 years as assistant professors before the advertisement appears. Am I correct?

I am traveling and have only intermittent access to internet and I have not been able to make the fitment tables.

Thanks

Giridhar

iitmsriram said...

Both at IITs and IISc, the on paper requirement to become Asso Prof is PhD + 8 years experience with 3 of those years at the level of Assistant Professor. The 8 year rule is being fudged to varying degrees by various institutions by counting experience as a TA/RA. And then, of course, there is a variability due to the timing of the advertisement which might come once in 2-4 years; so, woe on you if you missed an ad due to slight shortage of experience and the next one comes 4 years later. With the new scheme, eligibility is reduced to PhD + 6 years and to make full use of this, there should be an annual program of review or advertisement. BTW, I am happy to contribute to this useful blog.

Anonymouse said...

So, how do you think the IIT Faculty Forums will respond to this new notification?

Anonymous said...

Interestingly based on 5th CPC, parity was like(at least in terms of starting salary)
1. Reader in UGC University and Assistant Professor in IIT/IIM/IISC
2. Professor in UGC University and Associate Professor in IIT/IIM/IISC
3. and Professor at IIT/IIM/IISc was one scale above than professor in UGC.

But now as per this revised notification directly recruited Associate Professor(formerly reader) will be placed in PB4 with AGP 9000 whereas directly recruited Assistant professor in IIT/IIsc will be placed in PB3 with minimum pay 30000 and AGP 8000
and (s)he will be at the starting level of directly recruited Associate professor in UGC after putting three years in service at this level (mind this is "three years in service" not "with three years of experiance" as we all are confused) that too without giving them the designation of Associate Professor. In contrast to this incumbent Sr. Lecturer in UGC (formerly at Rs.10000-325-15300 scale) will also move to PB4 after three years in service and will be rdesignated as Associate Professor. Therefore MHRD has donwgraded Assistant Professors in IIT/IIMs and completely distorted the existing parity. Now Assistant Professors at these centrally funded institutions are equal to the earstwhile Sr. lecturer in UGC (not Reader).

You can easily observe same is true for Associate Professor in IIT/IIM/IISc Vs Professor in UGC.

I think we failed to convince MHRD about some of these things.

Anonymous said...

Interestingly based on 5th CPC parity was like(at least in terms of starting salary)
1. Reader in UGC University and Assistant Professor in IIT/IIM/IISC
2. Professor in UGC University and Associate Professor in IIT/IIM/IISC
3. and Professor at IIT/IIM/IISc was one scale above than professor in UGC.

But now as per this revised notification directly recruited Associate Professor(formerly reader) will be placed in PB4 with AGP 9000 whereas directly recruited Assistant professor in IIT/IIsc will be placed in PB3 with minimum pay 30000 and AGP 8000
and (s)he will be at the starting level of directly recruited Associate professor in UGC after putting three years in service at this level (mind this is "three years in service" not "with three years experiance" as we all are confused) that too without giving them the designation of Associate Professor. In contrast to this incumbent Sr. Lecturer (formerly Rs.10000-325-15300 scale) will also move to PB4 after three years in service and will be rdesignated as Associate Professor. Therefore MHRD has donwgraded Assistant Professors in IIT/IIMs and completely distorted the existing parity. Now Assistant Professors at these centrally funded institutions are equal to the earstwhile Sr. lecturer in UGC (not Reader).

You can easily observe same is true for Associate Professor in IIT/IIM/IISc Vs Professor in UGC.

I think we failed to convince MHRD about some of these things.

Anonymous said...

I am a colleague of giridhar in IISc. He will be disappointed with the insistence of three years experience with ph.d for assistant professors. He was telling that getting people in engineering is very difficult and they should be placed in pb-4 if they have three years experience and at 30,000 atleast if they are fresh. Now, the notification says that if some one joins with 1 year postdoc after ph.d, they will be placed at 20140 + 6000 or 7000. AM I correct?

I am in science faculty and we do not have this problem usually. Most of the faculty we recruit have three years postdoc experience. Now, they will be recruited at 30,000 basic + 8,000 grade pay and will move to 37,400 +9000 after three years as assistant professor.

In IISc, we have stricter requirements for promotion.
One needs to serve 6 years as assistant professor before promotion to associate and 6 more years as associate before promotion to professor. Eligibility in MHRD or IIT could be different but IISc will have the same rules as above.

IIT-Sriram, since you are knowledgable, can you throw light on what would happen for people who we have made offers but yet to join? We have recently offered to someone with ph.d with 2 years experience at 12,840. Will he be placed at AGP of 7,000 or 8,000 ?

Anonymous said...

IITs will prolong stricke,

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090917/jsp/frontpage/story_11506926.jsp

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram,
I think there is a mistake in
your calculation. As far as an
AP in IITs/IISc is concerned, yes
PB4 is PhD+6. Yes one is eligible
to move to Assoc. Prof. scale but
is it practically possible? So here we are talking of 10-11 years after M.S/M.Tech. Someone who joins NIT after PG can also move to
the same stage in 11-12 years getting a QIP PhD after 3 years of service. It typically takes 5-6 years for an IIT/IISc faculty to become Assoc.Prof. Add another year and the NIT faculty can become a Professor at a higher grade pay with lesser requirements.
I don't think i am very much off in the numbers.

A regular PhD at an IIT/IISc now appears to be less attractive compared to an AsstProf. position at an NIT or another engineering college.
I definitely share the concern of Prof. Giridhar, if the clauses are inflexible.

Anonymous said...

I am curious as to what the entry level in IIT's will be for someone with a phd + 2 years post-doc experience. Will he/she be considered a temporary hire with an AGP of 6000 or 7000 ? Also will he/she be automatically be moved upto 30000+8000 (AGP) scale after 1 year and 37400 + 9000 (AGP) after another 3 years ?

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Giridhar,

Now is becoming clear that you have a very annoying troll visiting your blog (Annon#5). Please, don't let the trolls upset you because the blogosphere is full of them.

Annon#5 you have so much anger in your voice. Be more respectful because this is not your house. Come here only if is to contribute with some USEFUL information. Even better, reveal yourself. You don't need to tell your job, but just tell us about your education background...

Annon#3, prestige doesn't (legally) pay for the bills. I am not Indian, neither I live in India. However, I do know three IAS officers that had very high rankings (top 15) and left service after a few years.

For those who are in academia, salaries are not only a matter of money, but of respect. All those who have reached renowned higher education institutions, either as students, postdocs or faculty know very well how much of their life they gave in exchange. The payment? Even in US assistant prof. aren't being currently offered more than 60-65K a year. In CA or NY one can barely pay the bills with this money and cannot even dream in buying a house!!!

M.

Anonymous said...

I have an offer to join a new IIT as an Assistant Professor. I received this offer in August. I have one years worth of post-PhD experience. The new notification is very clear about the three years post-PhD experience requirement. Assuming that this is the final notification, will I now get a new offer letter for the position of "Assistant Professor to be recruited on contractual basis?"

I was planning on joining the IIT in December 2009, but if I will be paid only about 60% of what I'm getting now (currently, I work at a private engineering college) then I will be reluctant to join the IIT. It will be a big disappointment since I was looking forward to joining the IIT with a lot of enthusiasm.

I've also been asked to attend the interviews for new PhD candidates so I can pick one if someone is interested in my area of research. I wouldn't have been asked to be present for these interviews if I were not going to be a "real" Assistant Professor, right?

I'm really confused and worried. I just want to know if I'll be reappointed as the pseudo AP. Any help, or words of reassurance will be highly appreciated.

-- NP

Anonymous said...

Dear NP,

Director and HOD of the IIT from which you received the offer should answer your very valid questions.

But that is the bottom line of all problems of India. No accountability and responsibility for anyone. At best, passing the buck goes on....Indian govt. encourages this and it trickles through the entire system.

T

Anonymous said...

Dear T, thank you for your reply, and I completely agree with you. Unfortunately last three of my emails (not related to this issue) to the authorities at the new IIT have gone unanswered for some reason. I've stopped sending any more emails for now, and Prof. Giridhar's blog (along with your valuable comments) is my primary source of information.

-- NP

Anonymous said...

In US universities, Assistant professors are hired right after their PhDs, there is no requirement for Postdoctoral experience of 3 years, and if an experienced candidate is found, they are monetarily rewarded for the extra experience they bring. So, PhD + 1 year is the same as PhD+3 years, both hired as Asst. Prof, with appropriate salary adjustments.

With this new system, a fresh PhD will no longer be hired as an Asst. Professor, a "contract" tag will be placed next to their title. It is very difficult to find PhDs in subjects like engineering and the industry pays top salaries for them. The going rate for a EE PhD in Bangalore is Rs. 30 lac pa. This is about 70% of what the starting EE PhD salaries in the US are. This person will now make about 6 lakh pa in IISc. I am sure that as soon as private universities such as Stanford, CMU, Harvard etc. are allowed to set up campus in India, a mass exodus of faculty will start.

This notification shows how ignorant the Babus in Delhi are about the global educational system. What surprises me is that someone like Mr. Kapil Sibal, who is Harvard educated, fell for the whims of the Babus.

I think what Prof. Madras originally suggested makes sense for Asst. Professors. Hire fresh PhDs as Asst. Prof. (no contract tag attached) in PB-3, to be automatically placed in PB4 after three years. If a PhD+3 is hired, they should be directly placed in PB-4.

In addition, I suggest the following:

1) Allow faculty to pay themselves a remuneration from Govt. funded projects.

2) There are additional things institutes can do without govt. intervention. For consultancy projects less than 10 lac pa, allow faculty member to keep the entire amount (no revenue sharing).

3) Specially for IISc: remove this arcahic rule of promotion evevry six years and set a transparent requirement for promotion (e.g 10 journal papers). If a faculty member can achieve that target in 2 years, promote in 2 years. There should not be a reward for just biding your time, specially in IISc.

Anonymous said...

The post of 'Lecturer-cum-Post Doctoral Fellows' mentioned in Para 1
(i)will be re-designated as 'Assistant Professor. to be recruited on
contractual basis'. There will, however, be no change in the terms and
conditions of appointment at this level.


Isn't this beyond ridiculous? What were they thinking? The strikes and protests were for a change in the name to the post, nothing else changes? I think it's insulting that they even put this in the new notification since nothing has fundamentally changed.

Anonymous said...

"remove this arcahic rule of promotion evevry six years and set a transparent requirement for promotion "

Actually, IISc does have a flexible rule. Normally, 10 papers are required for promotion in 6 years. But, say, you have 30 papers in good journals in 4 years, you will be promoted early. I think Prof. Giridhar himself was promoted early in 2 or 3 years because he published a lot. Of course, not just publicatiosn but also citations count. I think Prof. Giridhar was talking about average and the norm, not exceptions.

"For consultancy projects less than 10 lac pa, allow faculty member to keep the entire amount (no revenue sharing)."

This is already practiced in IIMs. Actually, consulting income less than 6 lakhs, there is no institute cut. between 6-15, it is 20% and so on. IIT/IISc should do this instead of asking 40% cut for everything.

iitmsriram said...

This in response to the comments about UGC - IIT equivalent cadres -in terms of pay scales only; lets not get in to job requirements etc etc :-). UGC reader and IIT assistant professor share the pre revised scale of 12000 - 420 - 18300, so these can be taken as equivalent posts. However, the same cannot be said of UGC professor scale. The UGC professor scale is a union of IIT associate professor and IIT professor scales; starting point of scale may be same for UGC professor and IIT associate professor, but the scale progresses beyond, so there is no equivalency here. Also, the old reader cadre is not the same as the new associate professor cadre of UGC. It takes 3 years as reader to become associate professor (incumbents). For direct recruits, reader needed PhD + 5 years experience while associate professor needs PhD + 8 years experience. This PhD + 8 years in UGC puts the scale at PB4-9000; in IIT, PhD + 3 years gets the scale 30000+8000; after 3 years, or PhD + 6 years, this becomes PB4-9000, same as UGC associate professor (but with 2 years less experience). Also, PhD+6 years qualifies for appointment as IIT associate professor, which is a higher cadre with minimum pay of 42800 + 9500. Finally, the statement about incumbent senior lecturers moving automatically to PB4 and getting redesignated is plain wrong. This movement applies to lecturer (selection grade) which is 12000 scale, not to the senior lecturer which is 10000 scale. Senior lecturers become lecturer (selection grade) after 5 years in cadre and will take 3 more years to get to PB4. Given these facts, I find it very very difficult to accept that assistant professors in IIT have been downgraded from UGC reader to UGC senior lecturer cadre. If we have failed in something, it may be in understanding the UGC notification and IIT/IIM/IISc notification. If we make representations to MHRD based on such incorrect understanding, the IAS officers will promptly laugh us out of contention and we will lose out on our legitimate demands as well.

iitmsriram said...

It may be nice if PhD + 3 years could be placed in PB4, but is this a realistic expectation? In UGC, it takes PhD + 12 years if one joined at entry level or PhD + 8 years if one got direct recruitment. In the IAS, one reaches PB4 after 12 years of service. Of course, PhD is not required to get into IAS, but the mean (and median) age of entry into IAS is currently 27+ with very very few candidates below 24. So, in UGC and in IAS, entry to PB4 occurs at age 35-40 approx. To expect the same to be given to IIT / IIM / IISc faculty at age 30 approx may be a bit unrealistic - it is a very hard sell.

Anonymous said...

iitmsriram,

Giridhar had made similar statements suh as these,

Thus, a regular professor in IIT/IISc is three scales below the highest scale offered in the government. See

http://giridharmadras.blogspot.com/2009/03/pay-scales-in-iisc.html


Now a professor of IIT can get AGP of 12000 after six years of professor. Considering that in many IIT, one becomes professor by 42 or so, by the age of 48, one would get AGP of 12,000 which is the highest in the government. This is above joint secretary, which one becomes past 55.

Anonymous said...

Anon@10:13PM. Your following comment is not fully correct:

"Actually, IISc does have a flexible rule. Normally, 10 papers are required for promotion in 6 years. But, say, you have 30 papers in good journals in 4 years, you will be promoted early."

The IISc follows a strict guideline of promotions once in 6 years and they make ONLY ONE EXCEPTION, when consider a candidate after 4 years, EITHER during the Asst Prof to Assoc. Prof promotion or during the next one. So, the best case is Asst. Prof. to Prof. in 10 years. This is still pathetic compared to what the IITs do (you can make a full professor in 8 years). Even the hiring requirements for Asst. Professors are more strict in IISc. Given that the pay structure is identical, it puts IISc faculty at a significant disadvantage wrt their colleagues in the IITs. Plus, the cost of living in Bangalore is skyrocketing by the day.

I would advice newcomers to consider joining IITs because the pay is the same but the promotional avenues are better.

Anonymous said...

iitsriram, Comparing IIT scales with UGC and IAS scales is very unreasonable, specifically by bring age into picture. It's like comparing oranges and apples. All three have entirely different entry level qualifications and positions. However, in IIT -it is crystal clear that PhD is the minimum qualification.
In UGC, one can become assistant professor with BTech degree. He can earn money while getting MTech and his PhD degree. He can become associate professor even without having PhD. Even without publishing more than 2, he can become Professor. Added to this confusion, bringing IAS pay scales (where the pay is mainly decided by number of years of experience) into this picture does not sound good. Unlike in IAS services, all promotions in IITs are based on merit (publications, funding etc) -it's never been automatic. Already, we have so much confusion comparing with UGC. Please stop this comparison with IAS.

Z

Anonymous said...

update:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090918/jsp/nation/story_11510481.jsp

Anonymous said...

"The IISc follows a strict guideline of promotions once in 6 years and they make ONLY ONE EXCEPTION, when consider a candidate after 4 years, EITHER during the Asst Prof to Assoc. Prof promotion or during the next one."

WRONG. There are faculty who have been promoted earlier TWICE and it is not necessarily 4 years. Prof. Giridhar himself was promoted earlier twice both from asst prof to assoc. prof and from assoc. prof to full prof.

The promotional avenue may be slightly slower in IISc but the research atmosphere and support is better in IISc than IIT.

Anonymous said...

I have a question. I joined IIX system 4 years ago as fresh PhD. Now I'll be be put in PB4 or not? Will they consider my first three years as "assistant prof under contract"? And for my promotion to Assoc. Prof from which point they will count?

Thinking of Returning said...

I am so happy to have discussions about the salary on this blog and thanks to Prof. Madras and Sriram for shedding light on all this stuff. The salary structure is so abstruse that even Prof Madras's best attempts in an earlier post still came up short and Sriram had to correct the remaining flaws.

However reading this tidbit
Now, the notification says that if some one joins with 1 year postdoc after ph.d, they will be placed at 20140 + 6000 or 7000.

Makes me wonder if I should change my moniker to Not Thinking of Returning. Doing a postdoc is more fun in the US with these kind of salary figures. When I left IIT in 2003, I was offered 50k salary in a software company in Bangalore, and prices seem to have quadrupled since then. Is it even worth coming back now.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Madras,

I am a faculty member in North America and wish to return to India. If you have information about the new austerity drive hitting Indian educational institutes, can you please let us know? It seems that the minister is not just recommending that institutes reduce costs, but actually specifying how (reducing on journals, seminars etc.). How can researchers function like this?

Anonymous said...

ToR,

Is it that after 6PC you would be getting less that what you would have got if 5PC salary was continued (when you made your decision to return India)? What has changed in between? I believe your 6PC salary won't be less than what you would have got under 5PC. I am not a PC expert. I need not be. This is plain and simple logic. There was an aberration where MHRD assumed that Asst. Prof. gets promoted to Asso. Prof. in 3 years. This is now corrected in revised order.

The salary had always been 'ridiculous' depending on who is talking to whom. People who served the system in spite of that will continue to do so. We shall still get applications from India and abroad. There will be people who take this job to be a part of the nation building process with love, sincerity and dedication as it deserves. None can put a price tag to these essential virtues of a quality teacher for rising nation like India.

Not everybody can become a teacher. It is a huge responsibility and requires a different state of mind. Salary is an insignificant component in the decision making process. Besides salary there are many avenues to earn (legally). I know people, even Asst. Prof. position, earning more than 6 lakhs a year outside his IIT salary. Govt. salary is a protected base salary. Put more effort, earn more.

Finally, not every application we receive from abroad are worth short listing. It should match requirement of either side. One should think it is worth returning. The other should think it is worth recruiting. Should match criteria of both.

If you have in it, try. I assure you that you will not starve. No faculty member of these institutes are starving.

Purab

Anonymous said...

Dear "Thinking of Returning",

I came back to India 7 years back and went through several internal conflicts in the decision making process. But like many others who have returned, I did not regret the decision.

At any point of time you are
weighing options, you will find more "lucrative" options abroad, hence it is not a comparison. You need to first decide whether you want to return or not and if the decision is YES, take your time and find the best option that you can get. Since you have mentioned you got a software job once in Bangalore, you may be from an CS/EE or allied background and can possibly try faculty positions in other institutes like IIIT-H or DAIICT (which are not governed by govt pay scales) also.

In short, decide first and then look at options. Also making a preliminary trip to India and visiting some departments is a good idea.

iitmsriram said...

Dear Z,

My intent was not to compare IIT apples with UGC or IAS lemons. Whether we like it or not, it is IAS officers sitting in Delhi who have major inputs to the pay scales of IIT and UGC. No matter what we do, they are going to ensure some similarity across the three with IITs getting some credit for being what they are; some credit, not unbounded credit. Being aware of what IAS and UGC folks get will hopefully give a context (and context only, no equivalence) to what IIT folks might get. That was the sole aim of my comments. Incidentally, since I am on this topic, I can point out to the anonymous poster that Joint Secretary (central) is grade pay of 10000 and eligibility in IAS is 16 years service. Even if we take max age of entry (29), eligibility will be reached at 45 years, meaning most will become Joint Secretary by age 50, well before 55. Well, thats enough about IASwallahs.

iitmsriram said...

Dear ToR,

If money is going to be a significant factor in choosing between IIT and other options, that is a lost case. Dont join IIT; it will become a question of when, not if you will become unhappy and quit. Joining IIT (or IISc) is something you should want to do and in that case you will get enough money to get on with life. To borrow from author Chetan Bhagat, is is a calling, not a job. It is not like you plan, analyze and decide you will join IIT/IISc because the pay is x, but more like you want to join and then find out what the pay would be and if it would be enough etc.

Anonymous said...

The insistence on 3 years experience is stupid in context of engineering department. If you look at recent recruitments in IITs, a VERY significant number have had less than 3 years post-doc experience when they joined.

I doubt if IITs will keep attracting the very best, at least in engineering departments, if they stick to this idiotic rule.

Anonymous said...

I talked to three of my friends, all at IITs/IISc. All assistant professors, I won't tell which is which to maintain confidentiality.
All are in engineering depts.

One joined after barely a year of PhD and has put in one year (A), one has more than three years of PhD and just joined (B) and the third has 4+ years after PhD (C).

A has said that he is definitely going to leave if he is re-designated as Asst. Professor under contract. Even if he is not redesignated, he is strongly thinking about taking up an industry job. B thinks that the pay is very disappointing and has started interviewing with some companies in Bangalore/Hyderabad. He is definite that he is going to leave in a few months. C is going to stay for a year and see if he makes it to Associate Professor, because he feels that he has invested a lot of time and effort in this career.

In my limited poll, 66% of Asst. Professors I talked to are going to leave. I wouldn't be surprised if this points to a bigger and more menacing trend.

mittal said...

iitmsriram,
See how cheap apples are and all of sudden lemons have become costly. Follow the link
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090919/jsp/nation/story_11514528.jsp

Anonymous said...

Add one more to your poll. I won't be joining if I'm recruited as an Assistant Professor on contract (the artist formerly known as the Lecturer). I agree with the sentiment that money is not the main reason why someone joins an IIT, but however much I may want to, I cannot run my family and support my parents if I'm making ~25k a month.

-- NP

Anonymous said...

A link to read
ttp://www.telegraphindia.com/1090919/jsp/nation/story_11514528.jsp

In a season of austerity, some top bureaucrats have quietly yanked up their take-home pay. Senior bureaucrats have given themselves a massive, second salary hike just a year after their pay was revised under the Sixth Pay Commission — at a time when the government is cutting costs, swearing by austerity. The Telegraph has a copy of the amended rules. .....

Anonymous said...

This is shameful. People who have done this without any discussion or debate should be named. This is a big scam, where are the news channels?

iitmsriram said...

This is about the telegraph article quoted about massive pay hikes for some senior bureaucrats. There is nothing shameful and there is no major scam and the TV channels are not there mainly because the story is not quite true. Yes, there is a hike, but not like what is presented in the story. The wording of the story ("The Telegraph has a copy of the amended rules") is cleverly done to make us think that this was some top secret shady deal. Actually, the notification is a gazette notification dated July 16 and has been available at the finance ministry web site almost since the day it was issued. Under the notification, Additional Secretary level officers' pay has been increased from a minimum of 63850 to a minimum of 67000; and, instead of having a pay + grade pay structure, it has been made single component. There is no change in the maximum pay which was 79000 before the notification and remains 79000 after the notification.

iitmsriram said...

Dear NP,

It would be unfortunate if you or anyone else chose to skip IIX as a career choice becuase of incorrect information. Our 'host' here has posted details of entry level pay elsewhere, but let me summarise. I will give gross figures assuming 'metro' allowances (applicable to chennai, mumbai, delhi, bengalure etc) excluding house rent allowance. If you joined as entry level assistant professor three years ago, your starting gross salary at IIX would have been 22620. Lets leave aside higher joining pay for now since the same kind of allowance can be given in the old and new schemes. Perhaps many were getting 2-3 steps up this way which would have pushed this figure up to 25k. If you joined last year, the starting gross would have been 28k minimum. And if you joined today before the pay revision, the minimum gross would be almost 31k. If you joined today post-pay-revision as assistant professor on contract with fresh PhD and no experience, the minimum gross would be 37262. If you have three years experience, the pre-revised minimum pay as of today would be about 34k; post revision, the three years experience would qualify for appointment as regular assistant professor with a minimum gross of 52k. If anyone wants, I can break out the details; there are no mistakes in my calculations. I know what I am writing about. Lets just say, I appeared in front of the Goverdhan Mehta committee (which wrote the report on pay revision for IIT IIM IISc etc) as the official representative of IITM, representing the IITM director.

Anonymous said...

Prof. Giridhar, It will be nice to see new fitment table based on the "New pay scales" revised notification (16th september) from the MHRD. If possible you can provide new fitment table like earlier notification.
Thanks in advance

Anonymous said...

@iitsriram,rel.telegraph article,IAS HAG scale:
a. can you give the URL of July 16, Min. Of finance amended rule

(b) It appears to be a shady deal if you compare the new6th pay scale correspond to pre-revised scale (S-30) of 6th CPC GO memo which goes upto max of 70380 (pay+agp). However as per the notifications dated 13th August (
http://persmin.gov.in/WriteData/CircularNotification/ScanDocument/20011_5_2009-AIS-II(A)-English.pdf) and 28th Aug 2009 (http://persmin.gov.in/WriteData/CircularNotification/ScanDocument/20011_5_2009-AIS(II)0001.pdf), the max pay goes upto 79000!. Also going from 63850 to 67000, they have given themselves "two free increments (two years of service)". Further, very conveniently pushed themselves into HAG scale equivalent to pre-revised S-31 scale!. Of course, it's quite a shady deal as they just appeared when IIT pay scales were put to lower bottom and austerity measures are being discussed (non-plan grant). Now compare this to IIXs new AsP scale: they argue that since IITs goes upto ~20000 but not ~22000, and hence they are given a lower grade pay of 9500 but not 10000. Don't you see a babu's convenient hypocrisy. Babus merged the scales at the top, but little lower than that they talk about equivalency.

Z

Anonymous said...

Dear IITSriram,

I have completed my PhD from a top European university back in 2008 and also have about 1.5 years experience in working at the industry in UK.

I have been recently thinking of applying for Asst Professor in IIT.

I am actually a bit confused by the recent pay commision reviews. It seems that at most i would be eligible for Asst Prof on contract and not get the permanent Asst Prof position. Could the selecting IIT make a decision on whether they want to offer asst prof on permanent or contract.

I am also unsure of the total emoluments of what salary I would receive if i was offered Asst Prof on contract or permanent. A breakup of details leading to the total emoluments will be very helpful for both assistant professor on permanent and contract basis as per the revised payscale.

Finally, i would like your impartial suggestion on whether if i am offered a position an Asst Prof on contract, will it be beneficial to my career. after all it is contractual and the institute may decide not to renew it...I am really confused as to what to do. Do you think I should ask the HOD of the dept and dean of faculty affairs for a clarification...Please suggest.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

Dear Thinking of returning,

The answer to "is it even worth returning now" is one that you can find for yourself, depending on how you define worthiness. Let me tell you how I have made this decision.

I am a PhD student in a top university in the US and am completely disappointed with the lack of an intellectual, adventurous and idealistic atmosphere in the university I am currently in. What is present instead is an atmosphere that emphasizes agreement and conformity and a pretence of accomplishment. There is also a latent tendency to hush up any inquiries that question the money-mindedness of all affairs or to behave as if such these affairs are beyond questioning. One is expected instead to seek satisfaction in monetary compensation for the lack of freedoms.

IIT-B (where I graduated from in 2006) was a quintessential intellectual place with argumentative, sharp, scholarly people, passionate about at least one of research and teaching, fearlessly being the scientists they wished to be. There were people with strong beliefs and some who had a degree of activism about them. These people routinely, freely, sometimes vehemently, disagreed with each other without a compulsion of being a "yes-man" to any one. It appeared like everyone agreed to an underlying ideal that open thought was to be encouraged. There were also socially nice people, who weren't confrontational and had a pure dedication to their teaching or their research and constant sense of wonder about the world around them. IIT-B provided a sanctuary to this variety of "beasts" so that they can contribute to their duty towards the nation. Everyone who belonged there, almost knew implicitly that the world outside would not give them the luxury of freedom that they enjoy there, and desire for this freedom was their true calling.

I wish to belong to the atmosphere that I recall in IIT-B, regardless of how much more I will be paid in the US. Due to personal reasons I will also be doing a post-doc in the US, but I doubt if that would be "fun" in the sense that I wish it be.

Ankur

Anonymous said...

Sriram wrote:

If you joined today post-pay-revision as assistant professor on contract with fresh PhD and no experience, the minimum gross would be 37262.


Dear Sriram:

Thank you for correcting me. After posting my message I realized that I hadn't figured in DA, etc which is why I mentioned the 25k figure. Even with the corrected calculations, the final take home salary after taxes is closer to 33k, which is much much better than 25k, and I will definitely not give up an IIT career because of it. It's still sad that several non-Ph.D.s that I currently work with (in a private collage) earn much more than this amount.

There is one more point I would like to bring up. The inherent implication of the "three years post-Ph.D." rule is that all PhDs are equal, which is far from reality. Ph.D. is a fairly flexible degree. For example, I delayed my own Ph.D. by about eighteen months so I could get an extra -- fairly important -- publication. I could have finished a "run of the mill" Ph.D. in four years, but it took me close to six instead. Couldn't one argue, then, that the extra time I spent on my last paper was -- for all practical purposes -- "post-Ph.D. experience?"

At the very least, shouldn't this decision be left to the elite panel of selectors? During my interview, for example, there were several people with more than three years post-Ph.D. experience, who were not selected. Surely the selection committee had a good reason for picking me ahead of them?

Say, one of my colleagues is a "real" Assistant Professor just because he finished his (possibly mediocre) Ph.D. sooner than me. However hard I may try to deny it, the truth is, somewhere deep inside I'm not going to like working in the same department as him as a "fake" Assistant Professor.

-- NP

iitmsriram said...

Dear Z,

You seem to understand and quote some notifications; therefore I cant believe you are getting confused between maximum fixation and maximum pay in a scale. The 70380 figure you quote is the maximum fixation i.e., the pay that will be given to someone drawing the maximum in the pre-revised scale (lets not worry about stagnation increments now). The maximum pay in the revised scale remains 79000 before and after the July gazette note. Every pay scale will show a difference between maximum fixation and maximum revised pay - else, those drawing maximum pay pre-revised will straightaway get a frozen pay since they will already be drawing the maximum in the revised pay scale. There is also some background to the two increments, whether we want to accept the logic or not. The eligibility to reach the super time scale was restored by the sixth pay commission resolution to a previous value which was two years more than the then current eligibility. Also, I dont understand your claim about S31 - there is a HAG scale (thats what we are discussing here) and S31 remains in a scale called HAG+. Presumably HAG+ is a higher scale than HAG in the same way the Apex scale is higher than either of these. I suspect that all this detail is carrying the discussion beyond the scope of what the average reader of this blog might be interested in; perhaps, we need to consider taking it elsewhere.

iitmsriram said...

Dear Anon European PhD,

There is little difference between an assistant professor on contract and a 'regular' assistant professor; the contract position carries all privileges except permanency. Heck, the director is actually director-on-contract! The two are like tenure track and tenured appointments. The apprehension stems from the fact that IIX's had not so far had significant contract appointments and now it will become a regular (perhaps normal) entry mode. It is not like there are no contract appointees now - some 5% or so are contract appointees even now. Yes, the selection committee can decide whether to offer a regular or contract position, but if the eligibility requirements for a regular position are not met, they can offer only a contract position. Here is a breakup of the entry level pay details as of now.

Assistant professor on contract: eligibility - fresh PhD, no experience required. Minimum pay 20140 pay + 6000 grade pay = 26140 basic (selection committee can up this by upto 23380 + 6000); dearness allowance @27% = 7058, transport allowance in metros = 3200 + da = 4064, giving gross = 37262.

With one year post-doctoral experience (either on this job or from prior service), the above contractual appointment will yield a higher salary from 7000 grade pay and increments given for the prior service. As an example, with one year experience, the pay becomes 20140 + one increment at 3% + 7000 = 27790 + 27% da = 7503 + same transport allowance = 39357.

With three years experience (not necessarily post-phd; it could be work experience one got by working before going to grad school to pick up the phd), one is eligible for regular (permanent) assistant professor appointment. Minimum pay for this is pay 30000 + grade pay 8000 = 38000 basic; da at 27% = 10260, transport allowance = 4064 giving gross = 52324.

If one lives off campus, there will be 30% of basic given as house rent allowance; if one is actually paying rent, part of this allowance may be tax free depending on some other conditions.

Yes, you could take up some of the issues with your prospective dean of faculty and/or hod at the time of applying or even at the time of interview. Both the dean and hod will be on the selection panel.

I hope I have answered the questions in an understandable manner.

iitmsriram said...

Dear NP,

As you might have noticed, I have worked out only the gross salaries; I have not tried to work out the retirement contributions or income tax to get a take home figure - many variables there. As for pay packets in private colleges (since you are working there), yes, some will get more. But I am sure you also know many more who get a lot less. Some years ago, the regulatory bodies were trying to ensure some minimum scales, but that is a losing battle I think. Now, private colleges are paying in a spectrum that varies from well above IIT pay to well below (say, about 2x either way).

Now about your 'post-phd' clause, actually, there is no post-phd clause. It is only that one cannot count the RA / TA that one got during PhD as experience (something most IIX's have been doing for some years). If your contention is that you spent extra time on your PhD to put out better publications, you can present that to the selection committee and get some credit for it. If you had a significant paper with, say, 50 citations, the selection panel could give you credit for that in terms of placing you higher in the scale by upto 15%. As things stand now, they may not be able to give you years of credit for moving into the next higher position. However, this advanced salary placement will continue to have effect even on promotion, since the pay will be mapped from one scale to another. In that sense, yes, it is indeed left to the selection panel to fix some of these things (within some limits). And, finally, if you have a problem with what someone next to you gets, it is going to be a long day at any IIX. The systems generally work, but there will be exceptions - there will be deserving people who miss out and there will be not so deserving people who will make it; if one cannot accept that the system only generally works (in a statistical sense) and looks for individual perfection in every case, it is not there. Given our ethos, I am not sure we will ever get there.

Anonymous said...

Dear IITSriram

Thank you for your insights. I feel I have now a better understanding of the recommendations of the payscale. As per the latest information, IIT and IIM have combined to present a joint charter of demands to MHRD

Anonymous said...

Dear iitmsriram,
Can you tell me whether this 3 yrs post-phd experience rule applies to those who have been offered 'regular' assistant professorship(not senior lecturer or lecturer-cum-postdoc) though with less than 3yr post-phd experience? Are they likely to send new offer letters as per the new notification? (FYI, the offer was made before Aug 18,2009)

RP

Anonymous said...

Dear IITM Sriram:

Thank you for your thoughtful posts, all your points are well taken.

RP, I've been asking the same question (will new offer letters be sent out -- "AP on contract" instead of AP?) but I haven't received an answer yet. I don't think you can have two different sets of rules for pay scales and selection criteria. Logically speaking, I think new offer letters should go out once this whole thing is settled down. You want new pay scales, then you should adhere to the new selection criteria as well. In fact, I read elsewhere (may not be a reliable source) that even existing Assistant Professors at the IITs who joined last year may be reappointed as AP under contract.

Though, from what I've seen so far, I'm not convinced things work logically all the time, so who knows. Besides, I'm happy that the IIT faculty are taking this lecturer/fake AP position very seriously. Today's faculty meeting should make things more clear, I hope.

Another way of looking at this "contract" AP position (and why I'm not comfortable with it, other than the fact that I'll be earning 15k per month less than a real AP) is that it sets my whole career back by three years! Three years from now, I will be what I would like to be today. What's the point of increasing the salary if I'm always three years "behind schedule?"

-- NP

Anonymous said...

@IITSRIRAM:
common 50 citations for phd publication is too much. I mean citations usually start after 2 years of the article being published in the journal. by the time they are 50, it could be 3 years (may be more) and the candidate as well may finish the postdoc requirement.

When someone is hired in US, they look at two aspects a) experience and b) potential. This second aspect is totally ignored in India when hiring new faculty (don't tell me no and all as I interviewed with three top IITs and the kind of things they want to know about you makes me believe this, the only exception was IISc where there was some sort of technical discussion). The first part totally depends on your advisor and field of study.
This three year postdoc stuff is pure nonsense. No one in US likes to spend three years doing postdoc (even your mentor would not like it). A two year postdoc in Engineering is considered enough most of the time. Three is generally pushing, which means you are not getting a job.

My experience tells me that IITs are teaching institutes with some research and IISc is a research institute with some teaching. Neither qualify for being called a full fledged technology institute like MIT,etc (its possible that we don't have to be like MIT, but daily comparisons to US univs should stop and actually think about what kind of educational system we want to build that meets our national goals. There are no Von Karmans (Galcit) or Gillmans (Hopkins) in India to build great places. Even if one comes up, they will be frustrated to death.).

Also, the student quality at graduate level at IITs is not encouraging. Esp., when the good ones are pouched by the OLD profs and the new guys are forced to take the leftovers.

With regards to 6PC. The salaries are OK. I can do with it. But flexibility being restricted is what troubles me.

K

Anonymous said...

Dear IITMSriram,
A candidate who joined IISc or IIT as an Assistant Professor in January 2007 with 4 increments (by now he will be having 6 increments)and a fresh candidate who is going to join as an Assistant Professor with 4 increments(who will be joining next month)- who will be having more salary as per the MHRD notification?

DRK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DRK said...

I have just posted software to calculate the revised salary of existing faculty members in IIX on my homepage:

http://web.iitd.ac.in/~kaushal

Kaushal

Anonymous said...

I think HRA is 30% (like Chennai city)only on the sum of basic pay + grade pay not on DA. Correct me if I am wrong.

DRK said...

thanx.. i have corrected.

Anonymous said...

Prof Kaushal, thank you for the salary calculator. For the sake of clarity, would it be possible to output the breakdown (DA, TA, AA, phone, etc) of the salary instead of just the total? Thank you once again.

Also can you add an option "0" for the position of lecturer? Just kidding! :-)

-- NP

iitmsriram said...

Dear RP and NP,

As per pay commission notification, the new rules would apply to all those joined after 1.1.2006. However, the UGC pay revision implementation circular made clear provision as to how to treat those who joined after 1.1.2006 upto the date of notification. This IIX notification is not complete as of now and such a provision has to be worked in and a detailed implementation circular issued.

iitmsriram said...

Dear K,

My comment on the 50 citations was just as an example; if the contention really is that someone took some extra time to finish the PhD because they wanted to do some extra work, if they have the something extra to show for it, they will get the extra credit for it. It could be citations, it could be a paper in a very prestigious journal (say, co-author of a paper in Nature) or some such thing and the selection committee can give credit for it.

Anonymous said...

scientists and prostitutes are paid for what they enjoy. Just accept the pay scale and enjoy life at IIT/IISc.

Anonymous said...

Dear DRK,
I joined in Aug 2005. But your calculation is showing I'll NOT be in PB4. Can you explain it?

A5

iitmsriram said...

Dear K,

It is unfortunate that you have observed good grad students being pouched by the OLD profs leaving the leftovers for the young faculty; this is certainly an unhealthy practice and a terrible way to build institutions. Fortunately, this behaviour is not universal; I can talk only about my department (IITM AE) - in the last session, the best PhD candidate as determined by the interview panel was allotted to the two youngest faculty members (they wanted to work together). This is an obvious way to get the younger faculty into the rhythm of things and get them to be more productive.

iitmsriram said...

Dear Anon,

(question about who will get more - someone who joined two years ago with 4 increments or someone who joins now with 4 increments); actually, as per the current notification, this cannot be worked out fully - the details of how to handle post 1.1.2006 recruits has not been given out yet. We could only take a guess. We would expect the newer recruit to be getting approximately 6% less than the 2007 recruit.

DRK said...

Dear Anonymous

Please use revised version. Now, it is showing your pay fixation as follows:
Enter 1 for Asstt,2 for Assoc,3 for Prof
1
Enter 1 for pre06 and 2 for post06 joining
1
Enter pre-revised basic as on 1.1.2006
12000
Month of joining in present designation (1 to 12)
8
Year of joining in present designation (4 digits)
2005
-------------------------------------------------
Pay on 1.7.2009 if under old GPF scheme = 64758
-------------------------------------------------
Pay on 1.7.2009 if under new CPF scheme = 60816
-------------------------------------------------
HRA = 14337
-------------------------------------------------
BASIC as on 1.7.2009= 47791
-------------------------------------------------
DA = 12903
-------------------------------------------------
TA = 4064
-------------------------------------------------
CPF deduction = 3942
-------------------------------------------------
Pay above excludes:
Telephone and Academic allowances of 1500 each
-------------------------------------------------

Anonymous said...

Dear DRK
I doubt if it is still correct. CPF deduction should be 10% of (BASIC+DA).
I assume you included GPA in BASIC

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Kaushal,

Thanks for the Pay Calculator. What should be entered for calculating the pay for a joining date of Jan 2010?
Should everything be same and just change the month and year of joining? Your reply would be highly appreciated.

Thanks

K

Anonymous said...

Dear DRK, your calculation is matching exactly with my joining date and year. However, I thought that my basic will be 37400. How it is showing 47791?

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof Giridhar

I had Joined IIT as a Scientific Officer in 2005 with the same pay as of Lecturer in NITs. But now after this pay commision i do not know what has happen to Our pay structure. As we are less in number no body is bother about us. Even we are not able to understand completely what is going out there. My request is that please look into the matter that atleast we should not get less than NITs lecturer. And if possible let me know about the pay structure for us. In 2005 my pay was 8000-275-13500.

DRK said...

i have included AGP in basic.. i have corrected CPF deduction in the revised version.

if u join in aug. 2005.. 3 years in service will be over in aug. 2008.. on 1.7.2009, u will get 1 increment over your basic of 46400.

Anonymous said...

Dear DRK,
I doubt the existence of academic allowance Rs 1500 in the new pay.

Anonymous said...

Ego issue?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Upset-over-pay-IIT-profs-to-go-on-hunger-strike/articleshow/5039379.cms

September 25, a meeting between IIT faculty and directors has been called to sort out the issue. "The IIT faculty is raising ego-based issues not data-based issues. They want the moon," one IIT director told TOI.

Where has Prof. Giridhar gone among this commotion?

Anonymous said...

Sibal said: “…At any university take MIT, Harvard or Stanford, it takes several years, sometimes 10 to 20 years, to take tenure. All that we are asking is that the state PhD with no teaching experience should not be immediately absorbed into the system. If he has had 2 years teaching experience, then he can have a one-year contract and then we can absorb him. If no experience, then it’ll take him three years to be absorbed.”

He said that the “tenure is not a matter of pride” and that after the contract period ended, the institutes could use their discretion to absorb the professors. “We won’t interfere in that process.”

20 years to get tenure? In which world is he living in?

Anonymous said...

Tenure-track is fine, 3-years in contract is fine, I totally agree that people should be offered permanent positions only after they prove their caliber. But does this "know-all" minister and his gang of babus know that assistant profs even though they are not permanent are paid handsomely in the US education system. Whereas now with the new "Assistant Prof in contract" position fresh phds are going to be paid peanuts. Do they think bright people would join iits at Rs. 30000/month? In India there will be no dearth of professors but the quality is surely going to be affected. I believe the ministry wants to "kill" the IIT system and wants to promote the foreign universities that are going to open campuses in India in the near future. It's a "big" conspiracy.

Anonymous said...

True, it seems to be a conspiracy to kill IIT system.

1. Increases seats by double without worrying about infrastructure and shortage of faculty.

2. Started 8 new IITs without any thought process as if IITs are mushrooming shopping malls.

3. Now try to hire Asst. Prof. in Eng for 30K. Who will join?

Does minister know anything about tenure process? And if he is so concerned about quality then let him follow the US style tenure system in totality. Bright PhD graduates should be hired as Asst. Prof. (tenure track) purely based on their academic credentials without any restriction on minimum post PhD experience. And salary should be negotiable for each case based on merit. Their tenure, promotion and salary increase should be based on their performance at the end of 5 years.

Does minister know anything about tenure process? I hope he should be smart enough not to reveal his dumbness openly.

And to top it, Prime Minister appreciates minsiter's work and gives him a pat on the back.

This will kill IIT system.

T

Anonymous said...

Well, this is what Mehta wanted !


http://www.business-standard.com/india/news//this-is-no-way-academicians-should-express-their-angst//368555/

"Was there anything in the IIT wishlist which could not be accommodated?
Yes. There was one point of disagreement. The IIT directors wanted fresh PhDs as assistant professors and we did not allow that. We wanted PhDs with some research experience in the industry so that they can launch themselves into research immediately. Experienced PhDs have a sufficient level of maturity and independently do research and that is when they imbibe the attributes of a mentor. This could be one reason why the IITs have established themselves as premier institutes for undergraduate studies but are not known for their research. "

Anonymous said...

Mehta's committee must have had some people from IITs. What were they doing at the time of report writing? Or is it one man report?

MHRD will play divide and rule policy again.....

The fact is there are good and bad researchers at both places i.e. IISc and IITs. There is a need to be united in this hour. But that is a rare thing for India and Indians.

T

Ankur Kulkarni said...

Well, horror stories of the death of IITs seem unreal to me. And I am not alone. There are quite a few at my university in the US who found the pay reasonable considering the nature of the job. They also find the comparisons that many are making with pay in the US (to claim that IIT profs are being paid poorly) casual and unfounded.

There is a clear difference between the job of a new IIT recruit and the one of a new recruit in the US univ. Faculty in the US are required to support their graduate students largely with their own grants. Thus having students necessitates arranging for a steady flow of grants. Many young faculty members claim that this activity takes up most of their time and emotional energy, leaving them with no craving for research. This pressure is absent in IITs since all graduate students are central govt employees. Furthermore, in addition to the pay mentioned for IITs, there accommodation being provided. This option is not present in US. A significant portion of the salary of a young recruit in the US is lost in the repayment of a housing loan. Also, on-campus facilities (such as the gymnasium, library etc) are free or have a nominal fee in IITs. In the US services such as these and parking cost a lot of money.

Anonymous said...

>>>>>>>There is a clear difference between the job of a new IIT recruit and the one of a new recruit in the US univ. Faculty in the US are required to support their graduate students largely with their own grants. Thus having students necessitates arranging for a steady flow of grants. Many young faculty members claim that this activity takes up most of their time and emotional energy, leaving them with no craving for research.
<<<<< Utter nonsense. Talk to
successful young faculty, not
losers.

>>>>>>Furthermore, in addition to the pay mentioned for IITs, there accommodation being provided. This option is not present in US. A significant portion of the salary of a young recruit in the US is lost in the repayment of a housing loan.
<<<<< I actually had to stop myself
from collapsing after I started
laughing at this ridiculous
statement. IIT accommodation is
very basic and sometimes in pretty
bad shape to move right into.
In the US, you will be paying
mortgage for YOUR OWN house. You
do realize that when you retire,
you will need a place of your own, right? With your salary as an IIT
professor, there is no chance you
can afford anything.

>>>Also, on-campus facilities (such as the gymnasium, library etc) are free or have a nominal fee in IITs. In the US services such as these and parking cost a lot of money.

<<< This is a very small fraction of your pay. I suggest that you get a US academic offer and make a cost of living spreadsheet. Do the same for India, then compare.

I don't think your comparisons
are realistic.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Anon 1:24 AM. Also it makes no sense to compare US and Indian salaries. If you look at the salaries IIT and IIM graduates who are getting jobs in India the average is around 1 lakh/month. MHRD thinks by paying 30K/month IIT's will be able to hire bright PhDs. This is utter nonsense. Look at the cost of living in metro cities nowadays. Academic salaries are lower compared to corporate salaries all over the world. There are many benefits to an academic life that money cannot buy. However 30K compared to 1 lakh makes no comparison. I know a few of my friends who are doing Phd in US univs who were interested in coming back to India and were waiting for the 6th pay commission implementation. With the current notification they are thinking otherwise.

iitmsriram said...

Dear T,

The following was the composition of the Mehta committee (affiliations as reproduced from the report): Prof. Goverdhan Mehta, Chairman NAAC and former Director, IISc, Shri Ashok Thakur, Additional Secretary, MHRD, Prof. Amitabha Chosh, ex-Director, IIT Kharagpur, Prof. Pritam Singh, ex-Director, IIM Lucknow, Prof. N.P. SIngh, ex-Director NIT Surathkal and presently Chairman, BoG, NIT Agartala and Dr. K. Narayana Rao, Member Secretary AICTE. If you want something more interesting, google for this last name along with say, cbi, arrest, suspend.

Anonymous said...

Our Harvard educated minister feels that he knows the US higher education recruitment system inside out. Hah! Sure, let's go for tenure track positions, but then make the pays negotiable. And FYI, US universities hire fresh PhD graduates (in fact offers are made before they have the degree) without any stupid requirements like 3 years of post-PhD research/teaching.
As it is, any PhD program is taxing enough and now the Indian government has made sure that we destroy our own human capital. Talk about competing with China!

Anonymous said...

I am a fresh engineering M.E + PhD from IISc. I was seriously thinking of joining IIT. But now, I find all these very discouraging for me to think of joining academia in India in spite of the fact that I love teaching. I think joining industry is a better option. In last five years there have been many good industrial research openings in India. Microsoft, Google, Intel, TI, Philips, HP, Samsung, Adobe, Honeywell, GE etc etc.. have now started their research groups in India.

The fact is, in India there is no appreciation for good research. People think its teacher's duty to teach well, doesn't matter what he/she gets in return. Historically/culturally a teacher is suppose to beg and feed himself.
I am not talking just in terms of money. I read Kapil Sibal's statements in newspaper and felt he does not have any understanding of how academia runs.

In my view, foundations of developed countries are based on research. Its the universities which have made USA where it stands now. Unless and until we support and appreciate research and researchers in country, we will keep buying technology from outside. And keep having failed missions like the dirty Chandrayaan one. I am sorry if I am harsh... but I meant wahtever I said !!

Anonymous said...

Anon @10:26 said:

>>> I read Kapil Sibal's statements in newspaper and felt he does not have any understanding of how academia runs. >>>

I think you are very correct in your observation. Now, this has become a clash of egos. Kapil Sibal vs. IIT faculty. So, Sibal is not going to be logical and the debate will soon become meaningless.

This is how lawyers work. They don't solve a problem. They muddle the issue till everyone is confused. Just because he had a few photo-opps with Indian scientists in Antarctica, people started thinking that this guy is a maverick. We need a new HR minister, since this one has been a gigantic failure. Dr. MMS, new guy please.

Anonymous said...

why blame sibal? Well, this is what Mehta wanted ! Mehta has advised Sibal.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news//this-is-no-way-academicians-should-express-their-angst//368555/

"Was there anything in the IIT wishlist which could not be accommodated?
Yes. There was one point of disagreement. The IIT directors wanted fresh PhDs as assistant professors and we did not allow that. We wanted PhDs with some research experience

Anonymous said...

I wonder what is wrong with our PM? He is an academician himself. Can't he see how his (or Madam's?) government is on an ego trip which is going to destroy the few world renowned institutes India can boast of? Wake up MMS!

Anonymous said...

Goverdhan Mehta is a faculty in science. Getting a PhD in science is far more easier than in engineering. There is a big difference in science and engineering PhD. Now it will be difficult for IITs to get faculties.

Anonymous said...

I fail to understand as to why Mr. Sibal is so adament to budge from his current stand. If the govt can afford to pay a dysfunctional herd of politicians and babus, can't they afford to pay a few extra bucks to the deserving? And why poke your nose in the selection process? How can non-Ph.D holders ever judge the merit of Ph.D candidates?

Anonymous said...

The IAS babus and MHRD minister are advised by Ph.D holders like Mehta. If they say, recruit Ph.D with 3 years experience only..others do not perform well, babus will listen to him.

Anonymous said...

Dear Ankur kulkarni,
If not for money and other perks, why many indians inspite of all the difficulties taking the faculty position in US. Just to lift the US from the developed nation to super-developed nation? I can atleast tell confidently that people coming back from US and joining IIT and other universities in India has some concern for India's development inspite of seeing his next door neighbour, a BPO employee, earning Rs. 20 - 25k per month just because he can speak in english(with BA or B.Sc qualification).

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Giridhar,
How about the faculty (with 5 yr post doc experience)who joined in 2004 as an Assistant Professor with 4 increaments - where will he be placed in 2006 in the new pay scale?

-Anon

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Dear annony

he will be in PB3 until he finshed 3 years in service.. then moved into PB4 in 2007.. u can calculate exact salary as on 1.7.2009 using my calculator available on my homepage.

iitmsriram said...

Dear Anon,

You state "I can atleast tell confidently that people coming back from US and joining IIT and other universities in India has some concern for India's development". Wow! Well, it is difficult to say what "some concern" means. If it means that is a significant motivating factor in returning, in my experience, such people make up less than 10% of returnees. I belong to the other 90%. How about our host Giridhar? If this is what drives you, you wont be in a university or IIT. Your radius of influence is very very small at these places; you will quit and go NGO.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof Giridhar/other knowledgeable bloggers,

I am an assistant professor at an IISER, and have a question regarding the fitment table you have published. There are assistant professors here who fall into the following categories

1) People who have had a few years of service at other centrally funded institutions on the pre-revised Rs 12,000 scale (apart from considerable postdoctoral experience) prior to joining IISER as assistant professor. Most of these people would have put in 3 years or more on the pre-revised Rs 12,000 scale, if their service at other centrally funded institutes is taken into account.

2) People who have had over three years of postdoctoral experience prior to joining IISER as assistant professors

How do you think the 3 year requirement for assistant professors moving to PB-4 (and more specifically, the fitment table) will be interpreted for such people? The MHRD order is rather ambiguous, and one of the crucial sentences is in fact mangled.

Thanks a lot.

Anonymous said...

I am trying to assess the situation. Right now I have received a contractual appointment as an assistant professor starting Dec,2009 and I have not completed the 3 year postPhD requirement. It will be completed only in late 2010, and I am very uncomfortable with the contractual appointment. From what I understand I will not get an on-campus accomodation if I am on-contract basis. I want to clarify the rule - is it something like: I will be eligible for a permanent position after 3 years of joining IIT? In that case - when can I apply to get a permanent position at IIT right at the time of joining?

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Dear anony

It depends whether you joined your present institute through proper channel. If your service is transferred from your previous to present institute, your previous service in scale of 12000 will be counted. If u joined your present institute after resigning from previous one, i am afraid that u will be considered as new appointee, no matter how many increments u have been given at joining.

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

All the assistant professors having less than 3 years of service will be fixed in PB3 on 1.1.2006, irrespective of their prerevised basic. In other words number of increments at joining wont affect the 3 years' duration for movement to higher PB.

Anonymous said...

so basically according to the table & your explanation does it mean that diff in reaching top of scale by being promoted or by not being promoted in just 2 years. doesnt it mean that in monetary terms there is no incebntive to perform

Anonymous said...

Anon@3:20pm: Yes, there is: nearly Rs. 3000 per month ! Because professor can get grade pay of 12,000 while assistant professor can only get grade pay of 3,000.

Dr. Kaushal can confirm from his salary calculator !

Anonymous said...

I have been reading this particular post comments for quite some time. I think all this comparison with pvt. sector and US should immediately stop. The IIT faculties being so educated are just behaving like some petty govt. employees.Overall any qualified govt. employee like doctor, engineer etc. get less than abroad and pvt. sector. Now if everyone goes on strike and tries to hold the govt. to ransom think what chaos will occur. The salaries will always be less for all govt. jobs compared to pvt sector and abroad. So if you worry so much about salary don’t join any govt. job.
Btw I am a scientist in govt institute, IISc and Harvad(HMS)alumni.

S Das

Anonymous said...

Tradeoff between autonomy and pay!
IITs could choose autonomy.

Anonymous said...

Dear D.R. Kaushal - thank you for your comments. Sorry I did not post my background properly. I finished my PhD(in US) which was in Dec 2007. Currently I am still a post-doc (in Europe), and my appointment at IIT as Asst. Prof on contract basis starts from December 2009. My three years postPhD period is not until Dec 2010.

What I am concerned about is the breakup of how the number of years is counted - will it require 3 more years AFTER I join IIT for getting a permanent appointment and move to the higher payband for asst prof (which is 52k gross I believe)?
Phd in 2007 and then

2 years post-doc+1 year IIT Asst.Prof=> 3years eligibility criteria,

OR,

2 years post-doc+3 year IIT Ass. Prof => 3years eligibility criteria?

Sorry for my very long question, but I am confused. BTW, IITs dont offer on-campus housing for contractual employees.

-I

Anonymous said...

In Dec 2010, you will be moved to 30,000 + 8000 i.e. 52 K gross. In Dec 2013, you will be moved to 37,400+9000 i.e., 63 K gross.

Currently, you are in year 2 of Prof. Giridhar's table.

Anonymous said...

Anon prev - thanks for such a quick reply!

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Dear annonymous

6thPC is yet to be implemented in IITs. Then, what do u mean by:
"my appointment at IIT as Asst. Prof on contract basis starts from December 2009.", as there is no such post in 5thPC.

I think, you should wait for another month, until new pay scales are implemented. Then, ask for revised appointment letter, clearly mentioning your AGP as 7000 with one additional increment. So that, u may be eligible for regular assistant professor post with AGP of 8000 in a year.

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Accommodation should not be a problem. However, u can ask them to write this too in your appointment letter. Generally IIT adminastrations provide all support once the candidate shows willingness to join them.

Anonymous said...

just wondering how hard & fast is the rule about being below 35 years of age for appointment as an Asst Prof at IIT (their website mentions preferebly below 35). I would be 35 this December & plan to apply early next year. Would that necesarilly be a problem. Also I am wondering what scales are applicable in Research Institutions like TIFR

Anonymous said...

This post is having a large number or comments, among them many are discussing about joining IIT or staying abroad.

If you have serious doubts come to US or elsewhere, get different experiences and be (or not) happy. You can be a postdoc, maybe later get a job, and if you are *excellent* and/or american, woman, from a minority group, has a PhD from a top US university, has TOTAL support of your supervisor in US, is already PI or co-PI in some grant, work with some *really* famous professor. Then you have very good chances of getting a tenure-track position in a good US university (not located in the middle of nowhere, and as prestigious as any IIT).

Ok, you guys are going to say that I am exaggerating. Unfortunately, I am not. US got severely hit by the economical crisis and American universities are very dependent of donations from the wealthy. This year there won't be many open positions too. Next year the hiring process may become more regular, but you can imagine the competition. For every tenure-track position the committees generally receive 200-300 applicants. How may will be from now on?

Regarding salaries. A non-academic job for somebody with a PhD degree (or Masters, depending on the field) has starting salary of 70-75K (in a metro city), reaching easily 90K (a work permit, green card or citizenship, helps). Even top universities won't offer more than 65K for a tenure-track position.

Anon September 23, 2009 1:24 AM, please stop dreaming!

Anonymous said...

anon@8:35PM

Although your numbers are close, you should remember that these are very specific to the specialization. In the US, liberal arts faculty make less than science faculty, who make less than engineering faculty, who in turn make less than medicine and law professors. This difference is not small. The lower end could be 40-45k/yr, the higher end could be $160-180k per year for Assistant Professors.

Since most IITs hire engineering faculty and EE is fairly typical, let me give you some EE numbers.
In the US, an MSEE+3 in a computer related areas will get you 70-80k per year, a friend with a fresh PhD started at a major computer company at $110k. Academic positions will typically start you off (again, computer engg.) at $90k for a 9 month package (summer salaries are not paid in the US). These numbers are based on feedback from friends and personal experience.

To go from industry to academia, my friend had to take an 18% pay cut (110k->90k), not bad at all,
considering that he could get summer support from his research grants and pay himself a summer salary.

I doubt that our "know-all" HRD minister knows this stuff.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Anon 9:05 PM. My numbers were referent to Sciences/Engineering area and Fall 2008 hiring season. CS/EE market is very mobile (unstable?) , but your friend should be really good. Only the really good companies will pay 100K for a fresh PhD, and that will depend a lot on how much time and money they have to invest to get or not get a work visa for him.

Also, top US research universities may pay less than many teaching universities. Additionally, in states like CA, he may pay 6-8K/month (or easily more) for a mortgage, and a 2bed/2bath rent in a decent (not rich, but just good enough to send the kids to school) will cost him 2-3K/month. Though CA government is broken, they cannot pay less than 90-100K, an many professors earn more than 200K (byw, the records are public, anybody can check it online). Is your friend in CA or NY? My numbers definitely are not appropriate for these states.

Do you know any *assistant professor* being offered 160K/year??? Was the Dean drunk?

Let's not make these fresh PhD dream so much. Btw, I know somebody that is very good, has very good publications, including Nature/Science, has very good communication skills, American PhD, good reference letters (fundamental) and hasn't received any positive answer yet in US.

Anonymous said...

Amidst all this, today's notification on the MHRD site has adjusted the "4 years at IIX for Associate to Full" rule a bit, now it can be at an equiavelent institution in India or abroad.
I doubt that they will yield much more.

Anonymous said...

Well since people are talking about the current scenario in getting a faculty job in us, i guess i can give you some info. I know atleast 10 postdoc (american citizen) in our national lab have not got any job this year although they have applied to top 20 univs. but this has never happened before. So you can imagine whats happening to internationals. As an example I know one guy who is iit btech then phd from top 3 us Univ, published papers in nature/science, infact he is currently reviewer of nature..got a prestigious fellowship in national lab have not received any positive feedback from top 30 univ and he is gonna apply to top 50 next yr.
One more info I wld like to share here that people who have already received offer letter from IIT/IISc and all set to join later this yr or in 2010 will be recruited as Asst. Prof. not in contract. This is really scary to see in the latest MHRD notification that one need atleast 3yrs post-phd experience to become permanent asst. prof. Well I talked with my dept. HOD and with the director of the IIT i am going to join and both of them told me not to loose sleep over that since i already received the offer letter I will be hired as asst Prof. (permanent) although they are not sure about the pay-scale whether that will be 30000+8000 or 38000+9000. Just wanted to share this info. Hope this will help those people who have already received the offer letter.

Anonymous said...

From Times of India.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/IIT-Faculty-Fast-Why-be-greedy-ask-IISc-profs/articleshow/5048191.cms

===================================

BANGALORE: One of the biggest brands of Indian science education, IISc, that came in much earlier than IITs, has been very quiet in all the noise
generated by the IITs over pay-scales and autonomy. IISc faculty unofficially hold that IITs don't have much of a case on both and that IIT/IISc faculty are "looked after reasonably well''.

Their contention is that the cash flow is reasonable and along with intangible benefits like housing, schooling and leisure, it's not a very bad deal for IIT/IISc faculty.

The predominant feeling is that after the Sixth Pay Commission, emoluments are certainly reasonable. "If we ask ourselves whether we can lead a comfortable life with the salaries we get, the feeling is we can,'' a senior professor said.

Another senior faculty member observed: "Can we compare payscales of teaching community with IT professionals? In that case there are many professions in which people are getting less than us as well as IT pros. If we compare ourselves to non-IT industry, we are still better off. Anywhere in the world faculty don't get paid like people are in certain financial and industrial sectors. Academia and industry are very different sectors. In each you get what the sector hands out. We need to be comfortable but we can't afford to be greedy.''

Faculty members also point to other advantages of being in a set-up like IIT or IISc. "Faculty can take up consultancy. The money you make there can be considerable. Faculty also get to go abroad during vacations for lectures for which they get paid in international currency. Then there is the sabbatical -- after seven years you can take leave for a year and teach abroad for which you are paid abroad as well as at home.''

ON AUTONOMY: IISc faculty say there's never really been any serious interference by the government. "There is a governing council that takes all the major decisions. Similar decision-making bodies are present in IITs too. No one tells us what kind of PhD has to be produced, the nature of thesis, the guide, research area. Everything is decided by the faculty concerned.

"As for recruitment, there can be some negotiation on prospective faculty to be chosen. IITs want more flexibility which may not be unfair considering they want to attract the best talent. But given that we are the top educational institutions, can we go on strike and hold the government to ransom? That is not entirely fair especially when things are not that bad.''

Anonymous said...

Dear anon @11:21 PM

Thanks for the info!

- RP

Anonymous said...

Hello Sir,
are there Phd Admissions in IISc for January semester? If so when will the advertisements be out?

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon @11:21 PM, thank you for the information. I'm a little confused, however. Do you already have three years post-PhD experience? If you do, then you don't have much of a problem with the new rule (except for 30,000 vs. 37,400). If not, then where's the question of the pay scale being 37,400 + 9,000, like they suggested to you?

If you read one of Prof. Sriram's earlier posts, he mentions that the three-year rule affects everyone recruited since 2006. And it makes perfect sense to me. If we are getting the revised salary, we should be recruited according to the revised rule.

If you don't mind my asking, what IIT are you joining?

-- NP

iitmsriram said...

Dear NP and Anon @11:21 PM,

Yes, I have statements about who the new rules will be applicable to - but I have also pointed out how the UGC notification has made special provision on post 1.1.2006 hires because of the substantial differences due to revision. In the IIX system too, if a fresh PhD joined in, say, Jan 2007, they would have completed their probation and got confirmed and it is out of question to 'revert' them to a non-permanent assistant professor on contract position - if they go to court, they will surely win. Details of these and how to handle pending offers (offered not yet accepted, offered and accepted but not joined etc etc) will be put out by an appropriate notification.

Anonymous said...

Prof. Giridhar

your table has a mistake.. for promoting to prof. post, one needs to have only 4 years' experience as associate prof..however, u have shown it as 6 years

Anonymous said...

Anon, read the lines before the table,
"If promoted to professor under the IISc scheme of 6 years as assistant professor followed by six years as associate professor (see green columns),"

In IISc, it is 6+6 and exceptions to the rule are rare. This has nothing to do with pay commission. IISc has been operating this for a long time

Trichur said...

Scenario in Medical Institutes like AIIMS and NIMHANS: You need to have 3 years post-Ph.D or M.D experience to be recruited as Assistant Professor. However no experience is required for DM and MCh degree holders to be appointed as Assistant Professor.

Raju

Anonymous said...

Dear iitmsriram and Dr. kaushal,

I recently joined IITK as an AP. I do not have 3 years of post-phd experience. Will I be re-designated as an AP on contract under the new rule?

Regards,
Ano @ IITK.

Giri@iisc said...

Ano:

Details of how to place current APs,
how to handle pending offers has not yet been notified. Please wait for some more time. It is unlikely you will be shifted from AP to AP on contract.

I am in a similar situation. I was promoted in 2007 from assoc prof to prof in less than 4 years. Will my promotion will be invalid? I do not think so.

I believe the pay scales will be applicable from 2006 but the change of rules for appointments will be applicable for only new appointments.

Kaushal and iitmsriram, who are more knowledgeable than me in these matters can correct me, if I am wrong.

Thanks

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

Prof. Madras,

Many thanks for your quick response.

Ano @ IITK

Anonymous said...

The 40 percent cap on senior Professor level(for 12000 AGP) should be removed or, else the promotion to the 12000 AGP should not be for ever. Every 3 years it should be re-evaluated, thereby the old one if his/her permormance is not good (comparatively) he/she can be moved out and the new one can come.

Anonymous said...

"The 40 percent cap on senior Professor level(for 12000 AGP) should be removed"

Why should it be removed? Previously, the promotion to the senior scale of 22,400 was restricted to 10%. Nobody protested at that time in IIT/IISc. Now that 10% has been raised to 40%, so one should be happy.

UGC has 10% and NIT has 20% even now.

Anonymous said...

Reevaluation every year is not practical. Those evaluate are senior professors themselves.

Anonymous said...

Following up the post September 23, 2009 11:21 PM:

Sorry if i have created any confusions. What I wanted to say based upon my discussion with the IIX director that I will be appointed as permanent Asst. Prof NOT in contract; since they already offered me. But the pay scale has not decided yet since they themselves dont know what it will be. It will be between 30000+8000 to 37400+9000. I dont have even 1 yr postdoc experience. I graduated in last February. But I negotiated the salary during my interview process and they agreed to offer me 3 increments. Now they dont know the exact pay scale after the revised 6PC notification. They told me to wait for a month before all these strikes and MHRD-AIITFF negotiations settle down and then they will decide case by case. BTW according to director, IITs still have enough autonomy and flexibility to decide how many increments they are gonna offer and initial research funding. Moreover they will give a chance to each candidate to negotiate the salary with them. Although this seems to be marketing line from the director. Personally, I dont care much about those few increments and take it as part of the negotiations, but its pretty much cool to know that they will not put me on contract. Otherwise its really scary to see that one needs atleast 3yrs post-phd experience to become permanent Asst. prof. Its more interesting to see that some IISc Profs. even support this idea as i got to know from newspapers. I think those prof.s are probably from Science faculty. wish some Engg. faculty chip in with some facts and data to make MHRD understood that its merely impossible to get a US phd with 3 yrs experience for Asst. prof post in Engg dept. esp in CSE/EE/Mech. Comm'n how they can even make these comments..do they live in the wonderlands? Nobody will complain if they start tenure-track type system but atleast they should make the salary even. Its funny that they are borrowing the idea from USA but implementing those with their own modifications with desi tadka..Seems to me like a bollywood action movie borrowing the story from Hollywood without any advanced technology and special effects. Dont they know that an Asst. prof before become tenured in USA gets well-paid?

iitmsriram said...

Dear anon @9:02 pm with job offer from IIX,

IIXs (and even UGC universities) have always had freedom to offer increments at the time of hiring; the selection panel can record some reasonsing and grant upto five increments. Beyond this, there is no freedom to negotiate salaries.

iitmsriram said...

Dear anon@2:58 pm,

There is no 10% or any other cap on the super time scale for professors of IIX as it exists now. The actual wording in the notification is " A super-time scale of Rs. 22000-500-24500 will be given to such Professors of eminence who are directly recruited and have completed 28 years of service. The selection process will be determined by the Government in consulation with the Institutions." At the Goverdhan Mehta committe meetings, the IITs reported that they have not implemented the scheme; IISc reported that they had submitted proposals but none have been appointed. However, on talking to colleagues I find that there are some and I think maybe 5-10 IISc profs have been put in this cadre. The principle behind objecting to any numerical cap is that if the cap is in effect, irrespective of how one is performing, one cannot reach that stage - becomes like the UGC structure, in that sense.

Anonymous said...

Infact, what the GM committee
recommended was for profs. to
start with an AGP of Rs 11,000 and
all profs to move to an AGP of
Rs 12,000 after 5 yrs. A small
fraction of these Profs. (6%?)
can be designated later as
Institute professors with a Grade
Pay of Rs 13,000 based on certain criteria. What the MHRD
did was to first reduce the AGP
to only 10,500 and then allow only
40% of the Profs. to move an AGP of Rs12,000. And the HRD minister
fudges this saying, they have given a higher AGP to a much larger
number than recommended by the
GM report.

Giri@iisc said...

IISc has a 10% cap. Initially, it was at 10% of the number of professors on roll--therefore, 20 positions. Then, the retirement age was increased to 65. Then, the number of positions were increased to 10% of the number of professors+assoc. prof. on roll. It has 30 positions on the scale of 22,400 and everything is filled as of now. Some will retire next year and positions will open.

The 10% anon was mentioning may be what it is in UGC by the 6th PC.

What happened to mehta's recommendation of giving 13,000 AGP to a few professors?


Giridhar

Anonymous said...

yeh dil maange more....

Anonymous said...

I have gone through your blog and am impressed with your effort. First of all thanks. I think you can choose to do one think in google excel spreesheet. The cell characteristics can be changed to take rounding off to 10. This way even if you calculate it gets rounded off to 10. 8900 to 10000 is having the same Air travel as the previous pay bands. The difference is that they can stay in three star or below hotels where as professors can think of 4 and 5 stars

Anonymous said...

Today's GO says that none of the employee is entitled to business class air travel.

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Assistant professor of IIX is all set to get PB4 with AGP 9000 at joining as directly recruited Readers of UGC have got it according to new notification:

http://www.ugc.ac.in/notices/UGCregulations2009.pdf

Ankur Kulkarni said...

Dear Prof Madras,

Rather than debating the size of the cap, why isn't anyone proposing a stricter and transparent review system (say, by having an independent international review panel) to determine the really worthy ones? Having no caps and only internal reviews implies that the higher pay bands are susceptible to abuse, which is a valid concern of the govt. But a transparent review system should satisfy the govt. Am I mistaken?

Ankur

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Kaushal,
You are comparing Asssistant Professor of IIX with a University Direct Reader. Do you also want PBAS system installed in IIX and no benfits for postdoctoral experience. You have to take things in totality.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Dr. Kaushal for pointing out this very crucial information. IITTF and IIT//IISc/IIM Directors should immediately bring the UGC notification issued on 23rd September 2009 to the attention of MHRD minister.

According to the UGC Notification
(23/9/2009) Readers under the UGC system (12000-420-18300 pre- revised scale) who are directly recruited after 1.1.2006 shall be put in payband 4 , i.e 37400-67000 with a AGP of 9000. Incidentally the Assistant Professors in IIT/IIM/IISc also have the same pre-revised scale of (12000-420-18300) and had always enjoyed parity with the post of Reader under the UGC system. This latest UGC notification makes a very strong case for putting all the directly recruited Assistant Professors after 1.1.2006 in IIT/IIM/IISc under the 37400-67000 AGP 9000 scale


The UGC notification is available at http://www.ugc.ac.in/notices/UGCregulations2009.pdf
(see page 38, para 6.4.12)


Thanks a lot

iitmsriram said...

Dear anon@3:41pm,

Dr. Kaushal has got it right. In fact, there are lots of things in the revised UGC notification that makes the current MHRD notification for IIX untenable in that IIX faculty are placed in lower scales than their UGC counterparts. I suppose MHRD will have a to issue a completely new notification for IIX. To give an example, PhD + 5 years + 5 papers makes one eligible to be a UGC associate professor at 37400 + 9000 agp. In IIX, it is PhD + 6 years to get the same scale with a title of assistant professor. To rub it in, the UGC appointee is eligible to be redesignated as professor with 10000 agp in 3 years while in the same 3 years, the IIX appointee only becomes eligible to apply to be an associate prof and that too with a 9500 agp. Someone with lower qualifications getting a higher placement, what totality are we to be looking at?

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Dear anony

I meant to say that prerevised basic of both directly recruited UGC Readers and IIX asstt. prof. is the same (i.e. 12000). Further both of them get selected through interview process. Then, why shouldnt they get same revised salary.

Regarding PBAS, i can say with surity that all the IIX asstt. prof. satisfy at joining the criteria of "Consolidated API score requirement of 300 points from all the three categories of APIs" for PB4 with AGP 9000. U can varify my statement by visiting any of the IIX asstt. prof. website.

I dont find any fault in PBAS, as it gives highest weightage for research publications which is usual practice globally. For PB4, the criteria is:
"Highest of the 50 merit points under
a) Research papers (3 nos)evaluation: 25 points
b) Organizational Plans: 10 points
c) Interview performance: 15
points".

Regarding your postdoctoral experience weightage, u too would agree with me that it is the best time for paper publication in jounals and conferences. If someone utilise this duration wisely, it is not difficult to attain required APIs.

Anonymous said...

Dear All,
Look in toto these UGC regulations. If they are really so lucrative, then IITF should resolve that they also want to be governed by these regulations.

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Kaushal,
A new CAS Reader got his salary fixed at 22320 whereas IIT Assistant Professor got his salary fixed at Rs.30000. Are you willing to fix your salary at 22320 because pay of CAS Reader was also 12000-420-18300 in prerevised scale. Prerevised scale arguement will not work here because government has upgraded the post of Reader to Associate Professor and to avoid legal problems given PB4 to all directly recruited Readers. Now, 5 year service in regular position as Astt. Professor or equivalent position is required for Associate Professor. Previously postdoctoral experience can also be counted in 5 years. In IIX a person can become Assistant Professor based on postdoctoral experience only. How experience gained in a regular employment can be equated with a experience gained in an adhoc postdoctoral position.
Anyway, if UGC regulations are so lucrative then IIX should adopt them in toto. I am sure that is what MHRD will say if IIX people will go to it on this ground.

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
iitmsriram said...

Dr. Kaushal,

Lets not forget the 20 points for taking all the lectures as scheduled! (Heck, why bother? Bunk, say, 25% of the scheduled classes and still get the 75% credit i.e. 15 points). And, if you take all the scheduled hours of seminars, tutorials and other contact hours, boing, thats another 20 points. And, "Imparting of knowledge / instruction vis a vis with the prescribed material (Text book / Manual
etc) and methodology of the curriculum" gets you another 20. Lets not go down this route, I don't think it can lead to anything constructive.

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Kaushal/ Prof IIT SRIRAM

What anonymous @3:48 pm says is not correct. Reader who is appointed by direct/open selection on or after 1.1. 2006 is going to get 37400-67000 + AGP of 9000 from that date of appointment ahd he need not have to spend 3 years in order to progress to payband 4 i.e, 37400 + AGP 9000(see 6.4.8 of page 38 / UGC Regulations). Apart from that UGC has also redesignated the post to Associate Professors

Directly recruited readers on or after 1.1.2006 are not getting 22320 + AGP of 8000 as cliamed by anan @3.48 pm , that scale is appicable to readers who got the post by career advancement scheme (CAS) and they have to complete 3 years in the same payband to get 37400 + AGP 9000 payband, so is nthe case of Readers direcly recruited before 1st January 2006. Thus the great irony is that a Reader apponted by direct selection on or before 31st December 2005 will get 22320 + AGP of 8000 and has to work in the payband to progress to 37400 + 9000 AGP payband . While all future direct recruits and the readers appointed by open slection on or after 1.1 2006 will straight away get payband 4. Furthermore the experience prescribed is not impossible to attain it is 5 years of teaching as Assistant Professor , i.e lecturer level ( pls note that the post of lecturer has been redesignated as Assiatant Professor ) or it can be 5 years research in that case then the applicant cannot count the number of years he has done the research to get his/her Ph.D


This is golden opportunity for us , we have to immediately point out this to the IITFF and Directors of IIT/IIM/IISc so that all the direct recruits at these institution can get 37400 + 9000 AGP from the date of appointment after 1.1.2006

Thanks once again Dr. Kaushal for bringing this out

Chandrika Prakash Vyasarayani said...

Dear professor Kaushal,

I have just finished my PhD from a good Canadian university in mechanical engineering. I have plans to join IITs. I am curious to know how many international publications one should have to qualify for the interview. Some general guidelines and statistics will be helpful. In an earlier post you said one needs 300 points after 3 years of post doc and one gets only 15 points for a journal publication, so how can one write so many papers in just 3 years.

Thank you in advance

Anonymous said...

sorry what anonymous@4.48 pm said is not correct

iitmsriram said...

Sorry, could not resist this one; why bother with all these above - get the Bhatnagar award and get a whole 50 points. I searched all through the tables but can't see how many points a Nobel prize yields :-)

Chandrika Prakash Vyasarayani said...

Dr. D.R.Kaushal said...

Further, if a postdoctoral fellow is not able to make a total 300 points in 3 years (20 points for international conference, 17.5 points for national conference paper and a minimum of 15 points per publication in journal), I think he does not deserve for regular asstt. prof. in IIX, too.

I was wondering about this!

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Kaushal,
I am again saying that if UGC regulations are so good then IIX should adopt them in toto. You should compare the Assistant Professor of IIX with an Assistant Professor of any good indian Universities like DU, JNU, Hyderabad, you will not find anydifference in quality. There also a person will join will as Assistant Professor only after PhD with some postdoctoral experience. Offcourse minimum qualification is MSc with NET but just look at the websites of these universities and check how many non PhD Assistant Professors you find in pure science departments. What they get only PB3 with 5 advance increments.
Present MHRD minister is ex DST minister, He knows the research output of IIX vis-a-via some top ranking Indian Universities.

Chandrika Prakash Vyasarayani said...

Professor Sreeram,

Please give your thoughts on my question

Thanks

iitmsriram said...

Dear CPVyasarayani,

If you are interested in IIX, don't bother with the points; just for your curiosity, the approx benchmark in UGC is 300 points for associate prof, 400 points for full professor and 600 points for professor+

Chandrika Prakash Vyasarayani said...

Dear professor Sreeram,

Oh that's for assoc prof!...a long way to go. Thanks again for clarity.

Regards

Anonymous said...

If this is what the Metha committee(which was supposed to give better package for these institutes compared to university) wants for the premier institutions to get salary package he must be considering these institutions as a third rate institutions or else he must have lost his mental balance while judging these institutions. What an insulting report and for that he is giving interview saying that we should not fight for 1000 rupees. Let him now look at this UGC notification and judge what he has done deserve anything to comment at all.
The Govt. should throw his report as a whole in the dust bin and appoint a new committee or else take the UGC recommendations directly. It will make some sense.

iitmsriram said...

Congratulations to our host Giridhar - he has just got himself 50 points by bagging the Bhatnagar award.

Anonymous said...

Dear iitmsriram

UGC should nominate him for President of India as he is having more than 5000 points from publications alone, which I think will be more than summation of APIs of UGC's top 10 VCs altogether.

Anonymous said...

Congrats a ton Professor Giridhar for this stupendous achievement (SS Bhatnagar Award), u eminently deserve it

Anonymous said...

Dear IIT Sriram,
In IIX, it is not just PhD + 6 years to get the same scale with a title of assistant professor. Please note that it is Ph.D + 6 years out of that 3 years should be in the service. It is not counting the post doc research experience. A Ph.D with 6 years post doc and served 2 years in the Assistant Professor level as on Jan. 2006 in these institute will be having nearly 6 to 7 increaments(4 or 5 increaments while joining and 2 increamnets with the service) in the old scale. With this new nosense MHRD notification he/she will be placed in PB3 with 30000+8000 scale and has to wait one more year to go to PB4. Whereas in university who joins directly as Associate Professor( I believe prerevised scale Readers in university are equal to Assisatant Professor in IITs with the basic pay 12000) with 5 years post doc experience as on 1-1-2006 will be appointed in the PB4 -may be with few more increaments if his post doc experience is higher than 5 years!!
What a justification to attract young faculty to these institutions?? If this is true, I strongly believe Prof. Metha should do some mathematics not organic synthesis to understand this!

Anonymous said...

Congrats Prof. Gridhar.
Wish you all the best in your research endeavors.

Anonymous said...

Please note that for Associate Professor in University now 5 years experience in a regular position as Assistant Professor or equivalent is required. No person from now onward will get any weightage for his postdoctoral experience for the post of Associate Professor in the University.

In IIX a person can become Associate Professor after 3 yers as associate Professor. Remaining experience can be postdoctoral experience. Moreover IIX Associate Professor will get AGP of 9500 compared to AGP of 9000 of a University Associate Professor.

Anyway if UGC regulations are so lucrative then IIX should adopt them in toto and switch back to pre 1986 state. I am sure this is what MHRD minister will tell IIX if they approach him on this ground. Anyway, present MHRD minister is ex-DST minister and knows the research output of IIX vis-a-vis top ranking indian universities.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon,
Asst Professors (direct) who have been appointed in IITs and Associate Professors(direct) who has been appointed in University before or after 2006 are in the same basic pay. when Associate Professor in UGC can be placed in PB4 (those who joined on or after 1-1-2006)in the beginning why not in IITs Assistant Professors(who joined before or after 2006) who have 5 years post doc experience while joining to be placed in the PB4?
No need to compare the quality of faculty in UGC and in IIX. UGC ofcourse, you have few good and excellent faculty doing good and dedicated work. But if you see overall, many, many IIX and IISc Asst. Professors even at the entry level had better qualifications than the existing university Professors. No comparision.

Anonymous said...

Remember IIT directors return empty handed from MHRD minister when they visited last time. He has asked them to visit again with statistics about their research output. I am sure when next time they will visit him and present the statistics, he will also show the research statistics of top ranking indian universities which are better than most IITs.
Why you people are taking about post 2006, why not about post 1986 when IIX and UGC scales were equal.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon,
Your reply is not based on the facts i presume. You please take all the universities doing science subject(Except few Central universities) and come out with a statistics to show how many publication per head they are publishing in a good impact journals. Take any IIT or IISc you can see their publications from their website itself. Above 60 percent(I know in science field and I hope the same in engineering also) are showing better performance in theses institutes and what is the percentage of performance in all these universities? I would also agree that universities doing acdemic/research performance should be considered on par with IITs and IISc, not all the universities.

Giri@iisc said...

Dear iitmsriram,

Thank you for your comment.

"he has just got himself 50 points by bagging the Bhatnagar award."

Had a good laugh.

Someone in the UGC did calculate the number of points I have: 230 international publications (>100 above impact factor of 2; 2 with impact above 10), around 50 international conferences, 50 national conferences, this award. Used to teach three courses (now only two) every year, served on GATE etc, guided Ph.D etc.

They said I have 8300 points. So, what should I do with this?

Thanks

Giridhar

Ankur Kulkarni said...

@Prof Giridhar

They said I have 8300 points. So, what should I do with this?

Donate a couple of points to the Indian team so that they can get to the Champions trophy semis :-)

Anonymous said...

Hi folks,

I have a U.S. Ph.D. in chem engg. with 14 years of industrial experience, currently at a senior management position in India. I am contemplating a switch to academia to escape the severe stress over the last decade or so in my industry.

Can you all shed some light on what level can I expect to join in an institute like IIT and what would be my gross salary assuming it is a metro location? Please share both pre- and post-sixth pay commission revised salaries for someone with my profile.

Thanks,
MS

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Madras,

I am an Asst. Prof. in a US university since August 2007. Now I have applied for Asst. Prof. position in the IITs/IISc in India with a tentative joining date of August 2010.
As per the new rules it seems that 3 years of post PhD experience is required for permanent Asst. Prof. position in IIXs.
My question is if I am offered a position now then should there be any problem in offering "permanent Asst. Prof. Position" as I will have the required 3 years of experience by the time I actually join the institute.

Thanks

Giri@iisc said...

No.

SKumar said...

For appointment as Assistant Professor, one should have a Ph.D with first class or
equivalent in the appropriate branch with a very good academic record throughout
and at least three years' industriallresearch/teaching experience, excluding
however, the experience gained while pursuing Ph.D.
It does not mean that 03 years experience is Post-PhD. Generally in engineering, one go for PhD after few years of teaching or industry/research experince. so, Pre-PhD experience counts a lot.
Also, with 3 years one becomes asst. professor, but if he/she has more than 6 years of pre-PhD exper., it does not have any significance in moving to PB4 in new MHRD notification. More disappionting is the fact that faculty who has a basic of 15780 (equivalent to 09 increaments)is put at the same 30,000 with a faculty having a basic of 12000. It is totally against the JUSTICE OF LAW. Moreover it is very frustrating and facukties with higher experience will definetly look for other alternative to move out of this humiliation...

I request Prof. Giri and other respected seniors to put some light on this

Anonymous said...

I have joined IIIT on 1.7.2009 on 12840/- basic, what will be my new basic pay.

PRASHANT said...

In my view CFTI should also change their faculty designations.
A person with PhD and three years post PhD experience will become an Assistant Professor and in other case a person with only ME/MTech with five year experience become an Associate Professor as per UGC guidelines. It will be hard to explain in sociaty that how a CFTI Assistant professor is different from Associate Professor in UGC and well qualified.

iitmsriram said...

Prashant,

Your comment about change in designations is reasonable; however, lets look around. In the US too, there are professors and then there are professors - so we may ask, professor? Where? We will have to start doing that here too, I suppose. Incidentally, your statement about when ME/MTech holders can become asso prof in UGC is not entirely correct; if they work in a university, it will take 13 years to become asso prof if they dont have a PhD. Else, they have to working in industry and a committee has to evaluate and declare that the work done in the industry is equivalent to a PhD and THEN they can become asso prof with ME/MTech and five years experience.

Anonymous said...

iitsriram,Giri@iisc,

Can you write the total salary (after 6th pay commission report implementation) for Asst Professor (old basic 12000)about to join in Y class city IIT(assume IITKgp, IIT Gandhinagar and IIT Ropar). What will be HRA for these cities. As you know faculty houses are not available in most of the new IIT's, how new faculty will be accommodated.

Anonymous said...

sriram

If u can become professor without guiding a Ph.D., why cant a Ph.D. with three years experience become associate professor.

PRASHANT said...

Dear sir
iitsriram,Giri@iisc,
I may be wrong about qualification and experience for Associate professor in UGC, however i wrote this based on one report of UGC i.e. UGC REGULATIONS
ON MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS
FOR APPOINTMENT OF TEACHERS AND OTHER ACADEMIC STAFF
IN UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES AND MEASURES FOR THE
MAINTENANCE OF STANDARDS IN HIGHER EDUCATION
2009
i mailed u the complete file sapartely, kindly put some light on this also.
Is there any pay fixation formula for those who have joined after 1.1.2006 with some advance increments based on their performance and experience.
with thanks and regards.

dilip said...

Is there any pay fixation formula for those who have joined as a lecturer in NIT after 1.1.2006 with N No. of advance increments in prerevised pay scale.
with thanks and regards.

dilip said...

Is there any pay fixation formula for those who have joined as a lecturer in NIT after 1.1.2006 with N No. of advance increments in pre revived pay scale.how there basic salary will be decided with advance increaments @3% or Mapped by fitment table.
with thanks and regards.

Anonymous said...

a question...has the 37400 to 67000 with 12000 grade pay scale been CHANGED to 67000 to 79000 scale? that is, for the 40 percent profs who qualify for higher scale, what is the higher scale now? is it 37400 to 67000 with 12000 grade or is it 67000 to 79000?

Giri@iisc said...

To the last anon:

No. Faculty who were in the 22,400 scale have been moved to the HAG scale of 67,000 to 79,000 scale. 40% of the profs will receive 12,000 AGP. This applies only in IISc. IITs did not have the 22,400 scale implemented.