Pinned post for prospective faculty to IITs/IISc
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Thanks
Anybody knows why the results of Swarnajayanti Fellowship for 2013 was not announced. 2014 application date has been announced but not results of last year. Is there some problem or lack of funds?
Dear Prof. Giri,
At the outset, many congratulations to you for creating such a wonderful blog !
I have been following your blogs for quite sometime now and liked it very much. However, one of your blogs that I have recently started following is on "out of turn promotion" in IIT's (http://giridharmadras.blogspot.in/2009/10/promotions-in-iits-and-iisc.html)
It provides a lot of information but still it was unable to satisfy my queries to a some extent. Please let me share my concerns: I work in a new IIT in computer science dept. In CSE, quality conference papers (specially A* --Blind review papers) are very important, besides Journals, Book chapters.
Kindly share your opinion regarding the weightage of conference papers during promotion review. For example: say someone has 6 Equivalent Journals papers (Journal + Full length Book chapters (not indexed through conferences)) and remaining high quality conference papers by 4th yr of his Assistant Professorship (i.e 2 yrs before his actual review). Would he be eligible for early promotion by Director and selection committee ?
Thank you for your advise.
Promotions in IITs are by selection based on an open advertisement. Therefore, you may apply when the next advt appears. The department has first got to shortlist you for the interview. This has to be followed by the appearance before the selection committee.
Dear Prof. Giri,
Thank you very much for the prompt reply. I deeply appreciate it.
According to the green signal provided by you, can I assume, with the credentials provided in my last blog (April 13, 2014 at 3:13 PM), I am eligible to be considered for promotion by experts (if I do well in selection committee interview) ...
Please pardon, as I am completely clueless whether the credentials mentioned in my last blog are sufficient for eligibility. You are an experienced person in this regard, so your insight will indeed help a lot.
Thank you very much
I am not giving any signal. I am saying that anyone can apply (it is an open advertisement). The people in your department have to shortlist you for the interview, then the selection committee can decide.
The selection criteria varies from institute to institute and it is difficult to say one way or the other. Ask your head of the department whether you stand a chance.
Dear Prof. Giri,
I request you to kindly not misunderstand me.
I can apply against an advertisement any time for out of turn promotion. But it may not be a wise time to apply if I know in advance that my credentials are still not enough to create a chance. That is why I was seeking your advise, to let me know whether, I stand a chance with these credentials or should I get some more papers before I can apply for out of turn (as I am not yet in my 4th yr of Assistant Professorship).
Your advise is deeply appreciated. Thank you.
You do not seem to understand !
Prof is correct, it varies from institution to institution.
IISc requires 40 papers in mech engg sciences to be considered for out of turn in four years from assistant to associate professor. IIT KGP requires 20 for promotion from assistant to full professor. Standards widely vary.
In computer science in IISc, with ten papers (similar to what you may have), you may not even get regular promotion from assistant to associate..forget out of turn. But the case might be different in your IIT.
star in new IIT may be normal in IISc. Star in IISc may be normal in good univ in USA.
You do not seem to understand !
Prof is correct, it varies from institution to institution.
IISc requires 40 papers in mech engg sciences to be considered for out of turn in four years from assistant to associate professor. IIT KGP requires 20 for promotion from assistant to full professor. Standards widely vary.
In computer science in IISc, with ten papers (similar to what you may have), you may not even get regular promotion from assistant to associate..forget out of turn. But the case might be different in your IIT.
star in new IIT may be normal in IISc. Star in IISc may be normal in good univ in USA.
You do not seem to understand !
Prof is correct, it varies from institution to institution.
IISc requires 40 papers in mech engg sciences to be considered for out of turn in four years from assistant to associate professor. IIT KGP requires 20 for promotion from assistant to full professor. Standards widely vary.
In computer science in IISc, with ten papers (similar to what you may have), you may not even get regular promotion from assistant to associate..forget out of turn. But the case might be different in your IIT.
star in new IIT may be normal in IISc. Star in IISc may be normal in good univ in USA.
@ April 13, 2014 at 9:57 PM,
You have so much information !!!
You seem to have worked in a new IIT, IISc and good USA as Assistant, Associate and Full Professor :D !!
:)
Also the anon who posted @ April 13, 2014 at 9:57 PM, seems to have knowledge in Mechanical engg and computer sciences besides knowing about IIT KGP, IISc, USA etc !!
It does not help to be snide.
I am a senior faculty in IISc, who previously worked in USA for several years. I also serve on the selection comm. of various IITs and, therefore, I am aware of the standards of good US univs, IISc as well as IITs.
I am from mech engg and, therefore, I know the standards set by IISc and other similar institutions. Regarding computer science, I have good friends who tell me what is required for promotions.
I stick with the original statement: Standards vary widely within Indian institutions, and it is not possible to say what eligiblity criteria your institution may have,
Anons@ April 13, 2014 at 10:43 PM, April 13, 2014 at 10:47 PM
You may be new to this blog. There are many experienced people who read it and write here. Be careful and respectful.
I would be keen to know who in Mech. engg. has got even close to 40 papers in 4 years as Asst. Prof. as suggested by anon (prof. at IISc). Maybe he is talking about hypothetical scenario. However in IISc ME i do not see the existing assoc. profs having that many either during regular promotion when they became assoc.
Dear Prof. Giri,
How good is the journal "chemical Engineering Science". Is it a top rated journal in Chemical Engg.
The top chemical engineering journals are listed here
http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/100/09/1276.pdf
There is not much difference between the top four. These are broad based chem engineering journals.
Please be respectful to others and do not suspect the data they provide.
Let me recap. In IISc, you normally get promoted every six years. The usual requirement for this is ten papers in standard journals. For early out of turn promotions, you should show significant progress and 30-40 papers are required.
All the out of turn promotions in chem engg, mech engg and aero in the last ten years have had these many papers for out of turn promotions.
In mech engg, the people who got out of turn promotions have now become professors..look at that profile.
You say, "I would be keen to know who in Mech. engg. has got even close to 40 papers in 4 years as Asst. Prof. as suggested by anon (prof. at IISc). Maybe he is talking about hypothetical scenario."
There is atleast one assistant professor in mech engg who has 40 papers in the last four years. Look it up. Maybe he is being considered, I do not know.
@ Prof. Giri,
You say for regular promotions (from assistant to associate) at 6th yr: 10 Journal papers are required. i.e. avg: < 2 Journal/yr
But for out of turn promotion say in 4th/5th yr i.e. a year or two before the usual turn, one needs to have 30-40 papers. i.e. 20-30 Journal papers more (extra).
Avg: 40/4 = 10 or 40/5 = 8 Journals/yr !!
Weird !
Why is this double standards during promotion ?? Why does the avg req per yr shoots up to 10 Journals/yr for out of turn?? Can you please justify this number required by IISc?
Because out of turn is meant for exceptional candidates only. Maybe 1 out of 10 cases.
I meant 40, 30 versus 10 as a guideline. It is not just the numbers that matter but the amount of contribution, as viewed by the peers.
@ April 13, 2014 at 9:57 PM (IISc Prof),
The anon in April 15, 2014 at 6:32 PM has posted a valid question.
Would you also please answer it and justify the number and requirement?
@ Prof. Giri,
Thanks for your reply.
However, I fail to understand that to prove exceptional, one has to achieve a weird figure (10/yr !!)
What is the basis for this magic number ? Further, is this a policy deliberately incorporated to not provide out of turn promotions (just have it only on the paper) ?
There should be clear cut rules for such scenarios. Having a random number of 30-40 jrls/yr does not justify.
My post on April 15, 2014 at 6:41 PM, should be read as ".....Having a random number of 30-40 jrls (10 jrls/yr) does not justify at all.
Dear Prof.Giri and other IISc Prof.,
I agree with the anon who posted on April 15, 2014 at 6:41 PM
My view is: Out of turn means exception, that I agree. The usual req is 10 jrls/yr. Fine.
So if someone is able to have 10 jrs (or more) before the usual period (say by 3rd/4th yr), he should be given early promotion, simply because he has already met the requirement. Why does he need to wait longer ???? IS this not exceptional that he is able to achieve something faster and earlier, so he deserves promotion.
The analogy is similar to Ph.D. If somebody can meet the requirement of Ph.D graduation (say x Journals, coursework, candidacy exam etc etc) in 3 yrs, he can be awarded Ph.D. earlier that purposefully waiting for 7 yrs ! This is a standard norm practised for Ph.D. everywhere (Abroad and India). So why not for promotion ?
Indian academia is obsessed with numbers, how much gets precedence over what for. Just a remark on why many people are busy producing garbage. I think 1 kg of research papers might qualify for an out-of-turn promotion :-)
Hello All,
I have completed more than one year of INSPIRE fellowship and have my progress presentation coming up in a few months. Since first batch of INSPIRE Faculty joinees have completed their two years, can anybody tell me about their experience of presentation? Is it a mere formality or some people get their fellowships discontinued as well? Also, is there any minimum number of publications for the awardee? Kindly guide me.
Many Thanks,
Hello All,
I have completed more than one year of INSPIRE fellowship and have my progress presentation coming up in a few months. Since first batch of INSPIRE Faculty joinees have completed their two years, can anybody tell me about their experience of presentation? Is it a mere formality or some people get their fellowships discontinued as well? Also, is there any minimum number of publications for the awardee? Kindly guide me.
Many Thanks,
Hello All,
I have completed more than one year of INSPIRE fellowship and have my progress presentation coming up in a few months. Since first batch of INSPIRE Faculty joinees have completed their two years, can anybody tell me about their experience of presentation? Is it a mere formality or some people get their fellowships discontinued as well? Also, is there any minimum number of publications for the awardee? Kindly guide me.
Many Thanks,
Hi All,
I will be visiting two IITs in next few weeks for departmental interactions and presentation of my work.I have a couple of queries, for which any input from exiting IIT faculties will be highly appreciated.
1) If I understood it right, the department recommends/forwards only the name of shortlisted candidates based on the performance in faculty interactions and presentation.
2) How likely is that the selection committee rejects the recommendation from the department?
Any comments will be of extreme help!
Many Thanks in Advance,
IIT-aspirant
I spoke to Dr Kohli at SERB for Ramanujan Fellowships. He said that SERB has exhausted all funds and there are no funds and he does not know when they receive from Govt. So, the situation is not looking very good for Ramanujan fellows who are not having permanent positions and depend on DST:(
Dear "worried Ramanujan fellow" anon, funds not being available at SERC should not be a major source of worry. This kind of thing happens at the beginning of every fiscal year till fresh funds are released sometime in April / May. However, this year being election year, parliament has not passed a budget but only a vote on account. So, the funds will start flowing freely only after the new government takes charge. In the meantime, your hosting institution should permit you to operate an "overdraft" in case you run out of funds.
Dear IIT-aspirant anon, it depends on the IIT. At some, being recommended by department to selection committee is as good as receiving the offer, only procedural motions have to be gone through. However, at others, this may not be so. At IITM, departmental recommendations are actually for calling for interview (not for selection) and about 5-10% of such recommendations are rejected by the selection committees. This is only for being interviewed by selection committee. At the interview stage, for assistant professor level, the selection rate is around 1:3 (only about a third of candidates interviewed by selection committees will receive offers). But, honestly, why are you concerned about this? The only time you may have to worry about this is if you have an offer on hand with pressure to accept or reject it immediately and you are being recommended at another IIT. If it is an issue of keeping your options open, you really should tell both parties; after all, the IIT academic community is quite small and this kind of information will get around.
Hi there,
I have received an interview call from IIT Hyderabad.
Had anybody attended an interview at IITH recently? Please share your experience and give suggestions.
Looking forward to get a reply.
Hello
Can anyone highlight on joining Mechanical Department at ISM Dhanbad with respect to joining at new IITs ? Particularly with respect to research and computational facilities.
Thanks
MK
@MK ,
Joining ISM will be a blunder !! No comparison with IITs (old or new irrespective).
Top 6 reasons for joining IITs (new or old) are as follows:
1. Freedom of work
2. CPDA of 3 lakhs for a block of 3 yrs and then again renewal. So freedom to go abroad conference with full funding.
3.Getting DST/CSIR grants is lot easier in IITs.
4. Better quality Ph.D. students than ISM dhanbad.
5. Teaching load lesser in IITs and well as course/labs are completely flexible. It can be completely decided by you.
6. Colleagues in IITs are mostly co-operative/helpful and have immense exposure working abroad. SO work culture is good.
The comment by anonymous "April 13, 2014 at 9:57 PM" on 10 papers per year not being enough for regular promotion and 30 to 40 needed for out of turn is pretty naive. It's better if people outside of computer science don't make such authoritative statements - they are inaccurate, misleading even as a rough guideline. It just shows the commenter knows very little about CS research and its publication model, and is probably misled by the volume and nature of publications in CS.
10 papers in top-tier conferences is more than sufficient for promotion in Systems areas of CS. However, in sub-areas like Theory and some others like Machine Learning, research volume is higher and you could multiply that by a factor of 1.5 or 2. In fact, publishing 30 or 40 papers in 4 papers can be viewed negatively often since the only way that's possible is (1) low quality venues, (2) too many short papers, (3) multi-counting (incremental, extended versions), etc. A good top-tier CS conference paper takes typically at least 6 months of work prior to publication, and these papers are full-fledged substantial ones (10 to 12 page double-column). They are as good as and often better than top journal papers in many other areas. For nearly all areas of CS, conference papers are what matter but this might change and hybrid models are emerging.
In CS, I would say 10 top-tier conf/journal papers in 5 years is healthy enough for IISc; 4 per year is exceptional (not counting papers is moderately and lower-ranked venues). That said higher quality / path breaking works have their own weight - so all these are rough guidelines.
(IITB CS faculty member)
@ May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM (IITB CS faculty member),
I completely agree with you. People outside CS dont really understand the publication model !
I in fact do not know of anyone who has published 30-40 journal papers in 4 yrs in CS area !! this means review hardly takes a month ! because developing an algorithm in CS domain takes a lot of time and review also takes avg 3 months. So how can one publish 10 journals every yr for out of turn promotion ??????????? Ridiculous comment !
So I align my thoughts with the IITB CS faculty member
your comment is more ridiculous.
"30-40 journal papers in 4 yrs in CS area !! this means review hardly takes a month !'
stupidity, publishing 12 papers a year does not mean review time is one month. you write one paper a month and then it is published after six months. in six years and six months, you will have 72 papers.
by your stupid logic, prof.giri publishes 24 papers a year, that means review time is 15 days.
@Anonymous May 14, 2014 at 7:38 PM
Thank you for your inputs.
I am not aware of the faculty and research facilities.
But I found ISM also offers 3lacs CPDA for block of 3 years
and initiation grant up to 10lakhs for research projects.
Also there is some talk of ISM getting upgraded to IIT.
Does it make any difference in that case?
Regards
MK
May 16, 2014 at 11:04 PM
You are naive to understand my logic !
In other areas , papers are lot more experimental (observation type), so one can write 1 paper per month as you said. Its not possible in CS where you have to innovate algorithms (development of theory) to publish papers. So developing/implementing/verifying/comparing 1 algorithm per month is impossible!!
Did you get it ?
So publishing 40 journals in 4 yrs means publishing 10 jrnl/yr...which further indicates developing/implementing/verifying/comparing 1 algorithm per month which is impossible!!
hope the logic is clear to you now
@May 16, 2014 at 11:04 PM,
publishing 12 jrnl in one yr with review time of 6 months means....that someone is submitting concurrently (in a time frame) approx. 15 full length jrnl papers (assuming 12/15 jrnl papers get accepted)..
this is again ridiculous..!!
Surprised just idiots like you talk logic. Last time, you compared review time to number of papers published every year and I said there is no relation.
Prof. Giri has 12 students and each student works hard for six months and writes two papers a year..what does the student publish? 2 papers a year. What does the professor publish? 24 papers per year.
Similarly computer science professors having 10 students can publish 10 papers because each student publishes 1 paper per year. Do this go into your thick skull? For Ph.D, student publishes 4-5 papers in 4-5 years..one paper per year.
There are many faculty in CS of IISc who publish more than 10 papers a year. for example, Look at
http://scholar.google.co.in/citations?sortby=pubdate&hl=en&user=cj3fJJsbjAoC&view_op=list_works
He has more than 20 papers in 2013.
@ May 17, 2014 at 9:07 PM,
Haha...you are funny !!
You consider students publication as your own publication !!! My GOD !!
I was in a misconception on 2 aspects:
1. I was talking of professors own 1st author publications..not publications where professor has not developed the theory by himself (as is the last author :( )
2. The list that you sent has conference papers. So if you consider 20 papers/yr both in terms of high quality conference and journal, then its fine. You sound logical, not funny !!
amazing :)
Please stop this conversation.
The original post had asked about the out of turn promotions in IISc in mechanical engineering department. I had mentioned that it is expected that 30 papers or so for a 4-5 year period is expected. In CS, it would be good conference papers. These are guidelines and if there is sufficient contribution to science or really high quality publications, then numbers do not matter.
Yes, publications with students are considered as publications by the faculty. I am shocked that people here think otherwise.
Anyway, please stop this conversation.
Hello
I have a question regarding the age criteria in IITs. It is very critical to my future decision.
I finished my PhD now at age of 35 years from a reputed university in Europe after 7 years of industrial experience.One paper is submitted and another in preparation. So now I can not apply.
My question is there any hope of getting in as Astt Prof next year when the publications are available or the age bar will be critical.
In case I go for a post Doctoral position (which are mostly 2 years) can I apply for Astt Prof at age of 37 or it is an impossibility?
Many Thanks for suggestions.
MS
Can I carry forward INSPIRE Grant from a award year to next award year?
Anyone knows the procedure?
--YY
What is the difference between ISER's UG courses and IISc's UG courses? Which is better??
Dear All
I applied for INSPIRE faculty fellowship Jan 2014. Till now no information regarding interview has been received or displayed on their website. Has anyone received any intimation regarding the same.
PK
I'm planning to return to India and looking at the various options available.
What are people's opinion on opportunities in the private sector? Any comment on places like BITS Pilani?
- ReturningAcademic
@PK
I got the interview call for Inspire in second week of May and interviews will be held in June first week. I think it also depends on the department, so you may want to call them and ask.
@Anonymous, May 25, 2014 at 8:00 AM
Thanks for your reply, did they mail you, or sent a letter? Which department are you from? And have they uploaded some shortlisted candidates' list anywhere on their website?
PK
@pk: i got an email, dept chemical eng, not sure abt the website posting
Hello
Sorry for reposting my question.
I have a question regarding the age criteria in IITs. It is very critical to my future decision.
I finished my PhD now at age of 35 years from a reputed university in Europe after 7 years of industrial experience.One paper is submitted and another in preparation. So now I can not apply.
My question is there any hope of getting in as Astt Prof next year when the publications are available or the age bar will be critical.
In case I go for a post Doctoral position (which are mostly 2 years) can I apply for Astt Prof at age of 37 or it is an impossibility?
Many Thanks for suggestions.
MS
Dear MS,
Apply immediately to IITs. Depending upon your department of interest, sometimes they consider two papers to be sufficient to call for an interview. Age is an important factor. Even if you get a contract appointment I suggest you to join.
Dear MS,
I had written a response on Sunday but it got eaten up somewhere on the way to the blog.
My experience is that the age criterion is relaxable by a couple of years provided the department likes you/your CV enough. If they are not impressed, the age thing is an easy out for them not calling you for an interview. I have found this to be true at both new as well as established institutes.
I would suggest you talk to some of the faculty in the IIXs you are interested in and get their frank opinion as well. I would get busy with trying to hook a good postdoc and work hard to get as many good publications out as possible in the next 2-3 years.
Good luck and best regards,
Assistant Prof at a new IIX (apnix)
@ May 17, 2014 at 9:07 PM,
Professors of CS not just in IISc, but some in IIT's (CS dept) also publish ~ 10 papers per yr (or even more).
I know of a CS faculty in new IIT where this person has/had more than 10 papers in each yr 2014 (and previously in 2011).
But again, as rightly pointed out by Prof. Giri and Anon May 19, 2014 at 9:07 AM, that 10 papers (or excess) for out of turn promotion is a justified number for CS dept, if the quantity comprises of Patents/Journal papers/ full length Book chapters/ high quality conference papers. Certainly not alone Journals ! Perhaps it then becomes a logical figure.
PS: Prof. Giri: Apologies for raising this topic once more. But I felt it is important to comment on this.
When a Ramanujan Fellow with a permanent position switches from Ramanujan Fellowship to the salary as regular AP, what happens to his years as a Ramanujan Fellow? Does he get increments for the years he was away from drawing regular salary? Would be nice if someone can share his/her experience.
@Prof Giri: From your earlier posts we learned that many IISc faculty members came back from Ramanujan to IISc salary. How was this transition done there?
Dear Anons @ May26
Thank you for your reply regarding the age factor at IITs for Astt Prof.
As both of you have different views (which is natural), I am still confused.
I will try to ask some IIX faculty but do not know anyone.
So I look forward to further suggestions.
Thanks & regards
MS
@MS
My suggestion would be to not waste your time and apply now. Postdoc is not a major requirement, it is relaxed by most institutes. If you do not get a faculty position soon, you can also join a postdoc in the meantime and delay your joining date when you get the faculty position offer. This way you will get appropriate increments when you eventually join. And there is always a option to reapply if your application was not successful; Prof. Madras is a great example.Good luck.
Any information about the results of Ramalingaswami fellowship for the year 2014?
Prof. Madras,
I am currently working as a postdoc in University of Connecticut, US. I have applied for few faculty positions in India but I am not aware of the current payscale of assistant professor. I went through your blog in 2009, you posted some materials on that. But to my knowledge since 2009, salaries have changed. Can you please shed some light on that.
Thanks...
Varun
Dear Observer,
If you have 3 years of experience after PhD, the salary that you get in hand is around 60-62K. This is without HRA, if you stay outside campus you will get around 70-73K depending up on the city you live. I I am an assistant professor in a new IIT.
Thanks Anonymous... I do have 3 yrs of postdoc experience. I was expecting a salary above 70k but are there any other sources to earn more cask through grants or industry consultancy. My area of expertise is lies in material sciences, primarily AFM based characterization of surfaces plus other associated techniques like florescence and acoustic microscopy. Do we have industry catering to similar areas of research? I have already applied to new IITs and other upcoming institutions. I am waiting for an interview call. I hope they are looking for a faculty having expertise similar to mine.
@observer:
With basic 30000, AGP 8000, and DA 100%, your net salary becomes 76,000. This excludes HRA and transport allowance of ~4000 (depending on city). This makes your net salary of about 80,000. Of course, take home is after taxes and contribution to NPS.
I suppose one can look at this document for a more official data on salary structure.
http://www.iitgn.ac.in/pdf/IITGN-faculty-advt.pdf
Thanks... all that info was really useful
Thank you anonymous @ May 29.
I am indeed applying for faculty positions at IITs but I did not get any response.
Seems industrial experience has no takers!
I am going for Post Doc but I do not know if 2 years later at 37, I can be considered for Astt. Prof.
I fail to understand this age bar!
Regards
MS
Can anyone comment if there is a preference (or bias) for in-person candidates versus in-absentia candidates (skype) with respect to research seminar and selection committee interview ? I am currently abroad, and have received an IIT faculty call. I am wondering if attending online is a good option.
RS
@MS
Since you already applied in IIT, I wonder if the reason of rejection was a PhD from Europe not USA. I know European Universities are well reputed but IITs seem to be slightly inclined towards US PhD holders. I am not sure a postdoc from US will help you greatly (in terms of academic job prospects in India), unless you work for a big shot or end up getting high impact papers (Nature, Science, etc.), given also that you will be 37 when you apply. I am sorry to sound negative but I am speaking this based on my interaction with Indians working in high profile institutes in Europe trying for jobs in India. I'll be glad to be proved wrong by you and others on this blog.
In my opinion (and more experienced people on this blog should correct me), you are better off applying to other institutes in India now and have a safe backup at hand (e.g. NITs, CSIR labs, or IITs where you have not applied yet). Otherwise, look for better options, unfortunately academic institutes in US also prefer US PhDs, and there are not many academic opportunities in Europe.
@RS
I attended the interview online and got a job so I do think there is a bias of any kind in places where they encourage online interviews. However, some places (e.g. IITB, IITH) do not consider people-in-absentia, atleast in department where I applied. This is rather weird since on one hand they seem to be reaching out to foreign PhD holders, but on the other hand discourage many of us with expired visa (e.g., on OPT). Since I did not want to go to try my luck in a US embassy again and spend months waiting for visa in India if my luck goes against me, I went to an IIT that was taking online interviews; I declined all other interview calls that wanted me to be present in-person. So, well, its your take, you can make one or several trips to India, or settle for a place considering online interviews. Note the difference between such places is not like first-tier and second-tier universities in USA, they are all ranked much lower in the world, it is just that some of them seem to have a higher ego.
(above post) I do *not* think there is a bias
@RS:
IIT KGP, for example, accepts skype interviews and makes permanent (not on contract) offers even in absentia. Of course, they would like to see how valid your reason for not coming in person.
@RS
In IIT Madras they do consider skype interviews, however if selected they offer you a contract position and you have to attend the next one "in person" to regularize the appointment.
all the best !!
To the people above who want to attend online interviews.
I'm also a prospective applicant who lives outside India. However, I feel that it is very important for me to actually go to the respective IIT, talk to the faculty there, look at the institute for available facilities and then decide whether or not do I want to join the place. Since, once I join a place, it is very likely that I will spend a significant portion of my career in that institute, I believe that I must be absolutely satisfied/aware with/of all the features of that place.
Getting a faculty job is very different than getting selected to an IIT through JEE.
May be I'm thinking in a very idealistic and impractical manner.
-PS
@PS:
You are completely correct in your approach. But it is not logistically possible for many of us to visit India for each interview, since many institutes will not agree to arrange your visit in the same time period. You may have visa issues, you may not get leaves so easily, and institutes will not pay towards air travel so the expenses add up. However, as far as selection goes, I do not think its too hard for the committee to judge candidates over video-conferencing. Institutes should provide this option to those who cannot attend in-person interviews. A slightly more flexible approach may go long way in attracting good candidates.
@RS, about skype vs. in person interviews. IITM considers in-absentia and if you have never visited the department in person, you will usually (not always) get a 2 or 3 year contract offer (and as has been pointed out in a prior post, you will have to appear for interview again to get a permanent position offer). It is not about in-person vs in-absentia bias - are you confident that you will be able to come across as effectively on skype as in person? I have organised more than 50 faculty selection committee meetings and this is the only "bias" I have witnessed. Some people are just not able to project themselves well through Skype or phone. You should be able to project your research and excitement about your research with only your laptop as the audience and if you have any doubts about this, then don't risk in-absentia. I have seen good in-person candidates struggle in-absentia (and vice versa too!) and the selection committees will go by what they see. Good luck.
Anonymous June 6 Thank you for your post!
I have never thought about that there can be discrimination about University in US and Europe. I thought at PhD level the group where you are matters. Of course if you have star guides then it does matter I guess.
Being in Engineering field I can not dream of Science and Nature but of course can try for good journals in my field.
It comes surprising to me when I read in this blog that there are a many qualified aspirants (not counting old people like me) who are not getting opportunity in IITs and when the media says that there is a faculty shortage at existing IITs. How high are the high standards?
MS
@ MS (June 7, 2014 at 6:48 PM),
I had been in engineering faculty shortlisting committee multiple times so far in a new IIT. I do not think Ph.D.s from US universities are given preference. Many people in IITs are Ph.D holders from Canada and Europe.
Since all candidates who apply are qualified people (holding Ph.D.'s/post-docs from good places abroad), I am curious to know how many publications you have so far in your career ? Providing breakup of your Journals and Conferences will be further helpful.
Thanks
Thanks @ Anon above.
It is good to know that there is no bias with respect to US universities.
As to satisfy your curiosity
I have 2 papers in International journals, 1 under submission and 1 under preparation.
4 International conferences (only 2 with proceedings), 2 Indian conferences with proceedings.
I understand that it is not a very good performance.
However relevant industrial experience (pre PhD) IMHO should be considered though it does not produce publications as most work are owned by clients.
I also have some friends who have around 4+ papers in very good journals but were not selected at new IITs in good cities.
MS
@ MS (June 8, 2014 at 2:57 PM),
Thank you for providing your information.
So far with what I have seen, the application quality received at our IIT is pretty good. Most of them with 4-5 Journals and 3-4 conference proceedings (all international in reputed venues). The avg is around 7-8 publications. Again this is just an avg number. There are sometimes applications with much better research track record.
As per committee decision, the papers under review and preparation are not considered. I am sure this rule is consistent across any IIT (new/old).
I would safely assume, you to wait until your jrnl papers get published/accepted before applying to IIT. This may result in better prospects.
Once more Ph.D. from US does not provide any preference. That I am sure.
@anon above
Thanks for correcting me regarding my statement on slight bias towards US PhDs. Its reassuring to know it from someone on a faculty selection committee.
Thanks everybody and especially Prof. Sriram for the helpful comments.
RS
Hi, I have applied to a few IISERs and new IITs for Astt Prof. with 3.5 years of post doc from a reputed Japanese institute and having JSPS fellowship too. I would like to know how many publications are required to be called for interview? I have 14 international pubs to my credit as of now.
Thanks
PKR
@PKR, It depends on which area you are in. If you are in engineering, you have enough papers to be called for an interview. However, I know in chemistry people apply with 20-30 papers.
@Annonymus June 13, 2014 at 9:39 AM
Thanks for the comment. Your comment means I wouldn't be called for interview. A prof. of iisc told me 12 papers minimum required for first shortlisting in Chemistry.
PKR
12 papers for shortlisting? what about if you have 5 nature, 5 science and 1 cell paper..you would not be shortlisted?
@Giri@iisc
There you go sir! I too agree there may be such instances. May I know your opinions on this?
Regards
PKR
I do not think IISc shortlists based on numbers alone - they would look at the quantity as well as quality. Other than Cell, nature/science, if you have several JACS/Angew etc., it will be looked favorably.
Thank you again @ Anon June 8.
It is good to know that 7-8 publications are required to be eligible for selection at new IITs. I had a false impression that 2-3 are enough. Now in the post above people are talking of 14 papers!
I would be grateful if you can share you experience on the weightage of pre PhD industrial experience and the 35 year limit.
Regards
MS
@MS
I think your original assertion is alright.
I just looked up the profiles of new faculty (assistant prof) at new IITs. Just take up IIT Gn or IIT Jodhpur as example. Many of them have as low as 2 journal papers.
I would like to believe here that the number of papers is an irrelevant statistic (as mentioned by Prof. Giri above). Selection committee would rather look at your overall scientific output in terms of quality as well as your capability to produce quality scientific work after joining.
[ I may be wrong !! ]
-PS
I do not think there is any faculty with just 2 papers at least in science stream. Not sure about engineering though.
PKR
Many faculty dont update their website. Search their name in google scholar and then come to a conclusion.
I wouldn't like to mention names as this would be not proper. There is one Assistant Professor at IITK Mechanical Engineering with one published journal paper. There is one Assistant Professor at IITGn Mechanical Engineering with two published journal papers.
I don't mean to say that these people are not good researchers, just that there are other metrics of looking at one's research output than just looking at the number of papers.
-PS
@ PS,
IITs with faculty members having as low as 2 jrnl papers are rare. Exceptions exist everywhere. Some dept struggle to retain and therefore do compromise.
I was talking of a general scenario where avg. 7-8 publications (good quality) are enough to be called for interview in engg streams. So far in my knowledge, people with 2 publications have definitely not been called for interview in our IIT.
@ MS,
I think what the anon suggested is with 14 papers (again good quality) one has a certain chance of being called for interview in engg. But 7-8 papers (assuming a mix of 3 jrnls and 4 conferences) is the threshold (exceptions apart).
Therefore, quantity alone is not sufficient. A hybrid of quality and quantity is reqd. I thought this is needless to say ! Now say instead of 7 publications (as I said) in engineering, say an applicant has 5 Elsevier/IEEE jrnl papers (reputed ones). I think he is highly likely to be called even though he may not have met the lower threshold as I suggested.
So the dynamics have to be understood here, instead of blatantly following a number (7-8).
@PS can you suggest what other metirc sshould be looked at other than publications to gauge research output? I agree with your comment but may be alternatives are not known!
@Anon above (assuming you are the selection committe member)
I would be grateful if you can share you experience on the weightage of pre PhD industrial experience and the 35 year limit.
Regards
MS
I think Prof. Giri mentioned somewhere earlier (several months ago)
If one had to simply go by the numbers, then faculty selection could be done by clerical staff by arranging the applications in the order of best to worst.
I think other things which matter are your research seminar, interview, letters of recommendation, and the entire interaction with the department members during your visit.
-PS
I am not sure about engineering branches but for basic science departments even having 15+ journal papers (good ones like APL, OL but not science, nature etc.) doesn't guarantee a call for interview.
As always, if you make a quick survey of the different IIT (both old and new ones) faculties, you will come across exceptions. Assuming that you do well in the research seminar, I certainly believe that apart from publication record, reco from big shot in India/Indians in abroad, university "TAG" or research experience in US helps a lot.
-SG
Any body has any comments on going for a post doctoral stint in King Abdullah University of Science & Technology (KAUST) , Saudi Arabia?
You can get a call with only 1-2 papers in engineering if you graduate from a Ivy league university. Some times they publish only 1-2 papers out of their PhD work. To get into an Ivy league one should have a solid background in your UG (IIT degree) or PG (IISc). The selection committee can make an exception in these cases. If one has a PhD from IITs or IISc or second tier US universities, you require at least 4-5 journal papers. Conference papers are usually counted only in CS and EE streams
To anonymous (June 13, 2014 at 9:03 PM)
- Not preferable. They offer a great postdoc salery but reputation wise its not good and social life is poor.
But at the end its your decision.
Citations are also important for promotions.
Look at prof. giri- he does not have too many papers in journals with impact factor of more than 10 but has 9000 citations/
SJP
@ PS:
your comment..."I think other things which matter are your research seminar, interview, letters of recommendation, and the entire interaction with the department members during your visit..."
is incorrect. The discussion is about shortlisting candidate for interview call (not final selection). How can a committee consider research seminar, interview unless he is shortlisted !!!!!!!
I dont think reco letters play a major role. The committee just uses it to verify something drastically bad is not written.
However, I agree that besides publications (again high quality), the brand name (ivy univ) may play a crucial role. The ivy brand can make up for the shortcoming of low publications (1-2).
I agree with the anon above.
Amongst all these discussion of publications required for interview call, one has forgotten about a scenario(which I witnessed):
Say an applicant has 4 Patents (2 granted and 2 Published) from US and Canada and no papers. Is there any doubt that this candidate deserves an interview call !!
I believe a granted US patent is considered equivalent to 2 quality jrnl papers. A filed US patent is equivalent to 1 jrnl paper.
Any comments.
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You're right, my comments are valid for final selection process only and this is what I had in mind while writing above. Apologies for the confusion.
While this is being discussed, can anyone comment on the importance / relevance of one's research and teaching statement. By reading comments on this forum, everyone seems to be too much concentrated on publications/patents.
-PS
@ PS,
That is fine.
I will let share what I experienced:
Teaching statement sometimes play a role while shortlisting (NOT ALWAYS). For e.g. a situation where, a dept is looking for a qualified candidate to meet some teaching load (due to absence or recent resignation of a faculty member), then teaching statement plays a role surely. However not at the expense of poor publication record. This is because in the longer run, the candidate is expected to do research, supervise Ph.D's, produce publications, bring research grants, do sponsored project @ IIT.
In normal cases, the committee just browses through it, to check if he is interested teaching the dept courses.
On the other hand, research statement is not looked upon seriously except the budget part (start-up grant requirement) of the candidate. If that is too high (excess of 25 lakhs), then it raises some eyebrows from higher authorities. The candidate may generate some negative vibes in the dept and with Director.
The above things written is based on my experience.
Is there any interview for Ramanujan Fellowship?
Also can we apply through different institutes at a time?
I would like to know the criterion for faculty selection in IITs. I have done PhD from a NIT in Chemical Sciences in collaboration with one IIT in the field of Polymers. So far I have given interview in couples of NITs and one IIT. Inspite of several publications (50+SCI papers that include Advanced Materials; Journal of Materials Chemistry; Polymer Chemistry etc.) along with couples of published/ edited books for Wiley and Taylor& Francis. I have also 5 years Post Phd experience from overseas including USA. I am currently working as research faculty in USA and wondering about my perspectives in India.
I am even surprised to see some faculty in IITs/NITs working in same field of mine even with 5-7 publications that too in low IF pprs. However I was thrown out from interview on the basis that I do not have US postdoc experience.I wonder what is the criterion for selection. I believe some IITs are quite fair while in some there is lots of regional politics (I have one experience of this at NIT). Even I am surprised that in some institutes , there are new faculties even with PhD from some low ranked indian universities with very less publications.
Anyway, I have just one question that is there any scheme Indian Govt planning to launch (like china)where people like me can join any indian university/NIT/IIT without any links.
Any suggestions towards faculty positions in India are highly appreciated as I am desperate to come back to India. I have still 3 more years contract service in the univ in US but I would prefer to come back asap.
@ Anon June 15, 2014 at 11:30 AM,
Your concern is genuine.
My frank assessment is that it is very hard to get a faculty position in IIT with a Ph.D tag from NIT.
You may have very good publications which is definite plus point, but the pedigree plays a role while shortlisting. I have experienced it. However, your thinking that you were thrown out because you did not have post-doc in chemistry is also true. In sciences, during recruitment, people get faculty position after 2-3 stints as post-doc even after Ph.D's from Abroad (or IISc in India).
Why dont you try Ramanujan Fellowship, Inspire fellowship etc launched by Govt of India ? Its for returning scientists from abroad (as you are in US now).
@ Anon June 15, 2014 at 11:30 AM,
Your statement, "...Even I am surprised that in some institutes , there are new faculties even with PhD from some low ranked indian universities with very less publications..." is true.
There are some anomalies but its very rare. Some do get position based on connections (needless to say !). Exceptions are always there, but the generally Ph.D. from low rank indian univ and low publications have almost negligible chances of becoming faculty in IIT's
Hi Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I do agree that they need postdoc from overseas. Surprisingly I have 3 years, experience as Research Scientist from one of 10th ranked school in Materials science and Eng from one of top asian univ. I think its difficult to get a Scientist position rather than a post doc. Anyway after thrown out from NIT too, I moved to USA and then did Post Doc for 8 months in MSE. After that again I have got scientist position in another US university. I am on J1 visa and still have 3 more yrs left to work. I feel its easy to get faculty position in USA rather than India. Unfortunately I can not be tenured due to J1 visa.I hope to get faculty position somewhere in India. Although seeing Indian thinking and politics I am not quite sure.
Can anyone suggest me in detail about the procedure for applying Ramanujan Fellowship.
Hi,
I applied to IITs for a faculty position. One of the newer IITs invited me for a talk. But they show inability to pay local flight charges. I am a bit confused on this point. Is it a normal practice?
Thanks and regards,
Anonymous at June 15, 2014 at 10:34 PM
I suppose there is a reason behind IITs [normally] not taking faculty who are PhD from NITs and other non-IIT universities. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that IITs give a very high emphasis to undergraduate education. Many professors feel that unless you have a very good pedigree in the traditional sense, you will not be able to act as a good teacher. (I mean no offence here, but this is what I gather after talking to people)
Isn't it a similar case in the US as well by the way. The top 10-12 universities will not take you as a faculty if you're a graduate from a low-ranked place, unless of course you're a superstar of your field.
anon at June 14, 2014 at 8:43 PM
Thanks for your comments. I have a similar question (it's just based on curiosity) about research publications. I see that IITs ask for reprints of one's best 3-5 research papers. I wonder if the shortlisting committee really has the time to actually read those papers !!
-PS
@ PS:
The best reprints are used in case there is an expert in your area. Then that person will have a deeper view of the quality of work carried out so far.
I dont think during shortlisting it plays a role. They may only look at the quality of Journal where it is published. However, the expert may use the paper to gauge the quality of work from there (and perhaps ask questions in seminar and interview).
Few comments-
Pedigree is important in US and India which follows US model. As far as I know IISc Engineering strongly prefers IIT BTech.
There can be exceptions but this is general trend.
US postdoc is definitely preferred. Don't ask why.
As for publications the more the merrier. Quantity rules over quality generally provided it is SCI journal.
As for age 35+ means your chances are less.
Dear Giridhar,
At IISc when a faculty goes up for promotion (regular or out of turn) can his package go to some other faculty of IISc(different dept. though) for review. Is that permitted.
Thanks
Few things about faculty hiring in India becoming clear from the discussion
* there are some metrics (publications, reco, etc)
* not everyone follows such metrics; there are more exceptions than the rule
* there are some biases (inst, age, country of degree/postdoc, contacts, "push", etc.)
* biases may be sufficient but not necessary
In short, it is sort of arbitrary. Nobody knows, candidates and selection committee alike :-)
Applying for faculty jobs in india are not for the faint-hearted. Best wishes to all prospective applicants.
@ Anon,
Though most of the points summarized seem apparently true, however, regardless of whether a candidate has connections (personal contacts/bias etc), or holds degree from whichever country....if he has good quality publications (atleast 7-8: few Jrnls and rest conf) and Ph.D. from IIT/Abroad univ, he is almost certain of an interview call
@anon above:
I agreed for most part of your point, but getting an interview calls for some institutes (e.g., IISc) are not guaranteed even after you meet the conditions you stated. I had a PhD from one of the top 20 US universities, >10 journal papers at the time of applying (in journals of impact factor 4+ but no science, nature), >10 international conferences, and good recommendations from well reputed researchers in my field, and some other accolades considered worthy here, but was denied an interviewed call and sometimes even a response from some places. I do not blame this on any bias and I respect the decision of the selection committee, they may have thought my degrees are fake or my research is not original :-) All I am saying is there is some arbitrariness here, else I deserved at least a response if not an interview call.
PS: Before I am called a "sour grape" by seniors on this blog, I'll mention that I do have an IIT offer in hand, things are not too bad really :-)
It is correct that sometimes even with the record you mention, you may not get an interview call.
It depends on number of applicants, which area the department is looking for and what profile they want.
In a recent chemistry department in IIT, where I served as selection comm member, they had received 586 applications, shortlisted 22 and the criteria was higher.
In engineering, it is not that bad. 7/8 journal papers with excellent recos and academic record will get you a call to visit the department, give a talk etc. Even here, if the department has too many people in that research area, they may not be interested in one more.
@June 16, 2014 at 8:11 PM,
I was talking of engineering depts of IITs. I am not from science, so have little idea.
Therefore, I agree with prof. Giri, that 7/8 high quality papers are probably enough for interview call in engg dept at IITs. In IISc engg dept, this may be around 10 papers to get an interview call.
However, in sciences, the number of applicants is always more, so expectations are higher. That is well understood.
@anon above:
I am from an engineering dept. It could well be that I am an unfortunate case here or may be they were not looking for someone in my research area as prof Madras has suggested. Since which area they are looking for is a committee/department/institute-secret, candidate should be ready for such setbacks. When I started applying, I thought my credentials deserved interview calls from wherever I apply in India, but I was being too ambitious.
-earlier anon
SK@USA
I do agree that in India in faculty recruitment there are more exceptions than the rule except @IISc (which is no doubt the best institute in India.
I have a MSc. in Physics from IIT Kanpur and PhD as well as Post doc from USA with some of the best publications including PRL in my field. I have applied in several universities, research institutes along with IITs and NITs. But I never got a call for interview. At last I gave up and got US citizenship. I am now working as Assistant Prof. in USA. I wonder how things goes in India. Although there is some transparency in IITs; however there is too much corruption in state and central universities. I even never got a call from govt engineering college..May GOD save our country..
One thing I can say is IITs are famous for their undergrad not for MS/PhD...
From some of the comments in this page it seems that that it is easier to get an academic appointment in US then in IIX for same credentials!
@anon above:
You are right to certain extent, just as getting a PhD admission in IIX are sometimes more difficult than getting a PhD admission in a moderately ranked US university. Same do apply for faculty positions. Here, by "difficulty", I mean the ratio of selected applicants to the total applicants in often lesser in India compared to USA. Whether the quality of students/faculty in India is better than such universities in USA is a separate question :-)
SK@USA
Getting faculty position in USA is easy because there is honesty and considerable weightage is given to your CV. They do not care about cast/creed/ country. As opposites to USA, in India most of the time selection depends on another factors (needles to say here). Another factor is the false proud of some election committee members who considers it as reputation to adjust their students in-spite of their credentials. Most of the time a Prof. from IIX selects a faculty member from another IIX because he knows his boss and vice versa goes. Another reason is dominance of Indian Academia by two lobbies who always prefer their own people.
Getting a faculty appointment in USA is way tougher than getting into any IIX. I have served as faculties in both IISc and USA. While IIXs may delay things but getting an offer is not hard at all provided one has a decent CV. this is my experience atleast in engg. USA will require the candidate to have a detailed research plan with possible funding sources. Your research ideas have to be greatly different from your advisor.
Another thing; when I applied i did not see any corruption in IIX w.r.t hiring. In IISc ME dept. I do not see that even now.
Saptarshi Basu
@ Anon June 17, 2014 at 12:37 AM,
Your statement that ...IIT are mainly undergrad and not MS/Ph.D institutes...in incorrect.
It no longer holds true. Even new IITs have more than 200 research scholars across 6/7 depts now all engaed in full time research. There are plenty of sponsored research projects, collaboration etc.
Further, promotion is completely based on publications, sponsored projects, # of Ph.D supervised etc.
Teaching only occupies 2 hrs per week and rest of the time a faculty member devotes to conduct his/her research.
No way this indicates an institute for B.Tech education.
It's true that the IITs are no longer teaching institutes. The teaching load is minimal (even though the class size is large) and it has almost no effect in promotions.
Even if one spends ~10 hours for teaching per week (3-4 hours for taking classes/lab, and twice that amount of time for preparation/grading), it leaves one with 30 hours per week for research. The problem is with the quality and motivation of the Ph.D. students who get paid less than half of what a Ph.D. student deserves, and lack many basic research facilities like a good amount of contingency grant and opportunities for traveling to conferences.
@Saswata
I agree that the PhD students need more motivation.
Can not the faculty at IIX do something about it?
We need to catch up with the world.
Also I feel we lack centralized facilities like labs or computing centers as in many countries.
Among all the hypes in the media around the B.Tech. students in India, the Ph.D. students have remained a neglected lot so far. And most of the IIT faculty can't do anything about it (apart from raising the issue), except (possibly) the ones holding administrative posts. The faculty members are expected to produce high quality research papers with Ph.D. students who are demotivated and not of a high quality due to the least amount of facilities and incentives given to them. Once this issue is seriously taken care of by the administrators, the IITs would become proper research institutes. At present, they are institutes with neither a focus to teaching nor to research. They are (hopefully) in a transition phase.
@ Saswata,
You are right. The motivation of Ph.D students is a problem in almost all IITs.
In my IIT, I found my Ph.D. students have a take it easy strategy !
Not ambitious really.
I have received an online/skype interview call from an old IIT. Can anybody provide information about what is the typical interview duration, and for how long am I supposed to give a presentation (slides) about my background and research during the interview. Any comments would be highly appreciated.
Dear All,
I have been reading the comments on out of turn promotion in IISc and IITs (especially IIT Madras). I have received such an application from my colleague for forwarding to higher authority. Though i am fine forwarding it as I believe he is a deserving candidate.
Although the guidelines have become somewhat clear, but are there any material of MHRD (or IIT council or IITs) which one can refer to, while requesting for such out of turn promotion (where performance based early promotion for exceptional candidates are allowed) ?
Otherwise, it would be so easy for the competent authority of the institute to simply reject such a rule, stating MHRD does not allow out of turn promotion (or simply state this sort of rule does not exist).
Thanks
Concept of "out of turn promotion" is mostly peculiar to IISc, where the norm is 6 years for asst prof to asso prof and another 6 years for asso prof to prof. IITs all follow "recruitment promotion" meaning promotion is against advertisement where external candidates also apply and IISc follows "review promotion" where a dossier of internal candidates is reviewed for promotion (like the promotion / tenure review process at US univs). MHRD has clear guidelines of eligibility for asso prof and prof (IITM ad is still out there and it has details) - asso prof requires 6 years experience with 3 years at the level of asst prof and prof requires 10 years experience with 4 years as asso prof at IIT / IIM / IISER etc. Promoting "out of turn" without meeting these requirements is actually illegal in that the candidate does not satisfy the minimum eligibility requirements, there is no provision for exceptions to this. However, it may be difficult to meet performance norms set by each of IITs when these time norms are met and in that sense, those who get promoted right when the time norms are met may be considered out of turn. The average faculty member may take a year or two more than the minimum time norm, especially for promotion to professor.
As for enrolment, here are IITM figures: total student head count approx 8300, MS and PhD head count more than 3000, BTech head count about 3000 (including more than 1000 who are actually dual degree students), the rest are other PG - MTech (including 5th year dual degree students), MSc, MBA, MA etc. The UG students are a clear minority, a change that happened about ten years ago.
And about NIT PhD as IIX faculty, it is not simply a matter of "pedigree", the issue that the candidate has to raise and answer is "why NIT PhD". Unless the candidate can offer an alternative reason, the assumption will be that the candidate was not "good enough" to get admissions abroad or at IIX, so is candidate "good enough" to be IIX faculty? Claims about biased selection committee members is total bunkum and is really an insult to them as far as IIX are concerned. Situation varies outside the IIX system, some are as rigorous, some are totally bogus.
@iitmsriram
On your statement "Claims about biased selection committee members is total bunkum and is really an insult to them as far as IIX are concerned. Situation varies outside the IIX system, some are as rigorous, some are totally bogus.", I seek the following clarification.
If there are two candidates with otherwise similar credentials, but one with the backing of a friend of a selection committee member or a famous/powerful person in an IIX, and other with no such backing. Will there be no bias between these two candidates? If you are answer is negative, it is indeed encouraging and contrary to public opinion, since there are many such stories heard even from IITM. I know that one can get a faculty position without any such contacts, but the issue is whether having them is beneficial by any means? Even the most computerized random number generators are full of biases, faculty selection committees are more humane :-)
.. there are a few instances in IIT-B and IIT-M where "The Godfather" played a role in faculty selection. Let's be frank these things happen sometimes... I would consider "luck" as a significant part to get a faculty position in IIT's after one has been selected for the interview.
Again IIT's is not everything .... going by the way the old as well as new government is planning to start up IIT's on wholesale basis, I would consider getting into a good engineering college/institute which also focuses on research would be a good choice :)
One thing that disturbs me is that the current trend is more towards research than academics(as rightly pointed out by other people here). I hope the faculty works towards a fine balance between the both.
anon asks "... Will there be no bias between these two candidates?". I was responding to another poster who commented that "Most of the time a Prof. from IIX selects a faculty member from another IIX because he knows his boss and vice versa goes. Another reason is dominance of Indian Academia by two lobbies who always prefer their own people." There is no bias of this kind (and I don't even know what the two lobbies are). Now, to come back to the original question, say, there are two candidates, one with a private engineering college UG degree and another with an IIT BTech and otherwise similar record. Leaving aside for the moment what "otherwise similar record" means (I mean, do selection committee members have a faculty-o-meter with three digit accuracy?), what would you do as a selection committee member? Would preferring the IIT B.Tech. automatically amount to bias? IIT selection committees have 5-6 members and anyone batting for a friend's student, trying to defend an indefensible, quickly gets eliminated from the selection committees - the community is quite small and word gets around. I am reminded of an article written about 25 years ago (http://ajaysat.tripod.com/vidyasagar.html), there is some "public opinion", typically dominated by a few unsuccessful candidates and this is far from the reality.
@saswata laments that "Ph.D. students who get paid less than half of what a Ph.D. student deserves". There is a proposal to raise HTRA to Rs. 30K per month (plus HRA as applicable). This also has to be viewed in the background of median salary for BE graduates which is about 25K per month. About 75% of BE graduates placed through campus placements get less than 4 lakhs per annum
Prof. Sriram,
One problem in this median salary calculation is that it's dependent on the branch. For example, the median post BE/BTech salary in Computer Science and Engineering is around 50K per month, and hence 30K might not be attractive enough for a prospective CSE Ph.D. student. On the other hand, 30K per month is indeed above the median salary for a Mathematics student post his/her UG degree.
Another important question is why we are targeting the "median" students for our Ph.D. programmes, and not the best ones. However, I agree that this proposal to increase the stipend of Ph.D. students would help the research culture of IITs. The present stipend of 18K per month is simply not attractive enough for the good students to join our Ph.D. programmes.
Finally, other incentives like non-nominal contingency grants and travel support should also be created for the Ph.D. students to attract and motivate them.
@Dr. Sriram,
I am shocked at your statement..."Promoting "out of turn" without meeting these requirements is actually illegal in that the candidate does not satisfy the minimum eligibility requirements, there is no provision for exceptions to this....".....ILLEGAL ???
Promoting someone early because of significantly better performance is illegal in IIT !!!!!!! cant believe this !!
If this is so, how did it happen earlier in 2009 at IIT-M, chemical engineering; where IIT-M promoted a faculty in chemical engineering directly from assistant professor to full professor. This is clearly written by Prof. Giri in the blog of October 27, 2009 (6.50pm). Check the blog on "Promotions in IITs and IISc" @:http://giridharmadras.blogspot.in/2009/10/promotions-in-iits-and-iisc.html
Should I consider this your lapse ????
Prof. Giri,
May you please correct Prof. Sriram.
No lapse; these current rules were notified in Aug 2009 (6th pay commission) and the rules were different prior to that, presumably when the "direct" promotion took place. Shocking or not, this is the position. The years of experience etc have been notified by MHRD as part of the pay regulations and are as essential as, say, the PhD degree (though there are some provisions to relax the PhD requirement).
@ Dr. Sriram,
Your statement is still controversial. I cant believe it!
You say this is as per Aug 2009 (6th pay commission), then it should be applicable to both IIT and IISc. Then how does early (out of turn) promotions still occurs in IISc ??????????????
Rules are different for IIT and IISc !!
Continuing on my presumption, there were actually 4 candidates promoted directly from asst prof to prof at IITM in March 2009, some months before the current rules came into force.
@saswatha, IITM gives a travel grant of upto 1.25 lakhs for PhD scholars to present papers at a conference; I know, it is only one, but something. The current proposal to enhance the scholarship also has a similar provision.
@ DR. Sriram,
You have not commented on my earlier post: how come MHRD rules (6th pay commission 2009) for out of turn promotion is diff for IIT and IISc ?
If MHRD does not allow out of turn promotion for IITs, then how is this practice still being continued in IISc ?
anon asks "If MHRD does not allow out of turn promotion for IITs, then how is this practice still being continued in IISc ?" This is for someone from IISc to answer, what is there for me to say?
Promotion to associate prof requires 6 years experience with 3 years at the level of asst prof.
Promotion to prof requires 4 years at the level of assoc prof.
The above is followed in IISc also. In IISc, the normal term is six years as asst prof for promotion to associate prof and six years as associate prof for promotion to prof.
If it happens, say in 4.5 or 5.5 years, it is called out of turn but four years at the previous level is required in IISc.
MHRD allows exceptions. Currently Bhatnagar winner is not considered exception but if some associate professor can get the Nobel prize, he/she can be promoted. Do not worry, we will get the permission from MHRD in that case.
The answer is very simple, IISc takes some one as assistant professor only if the have 3 years of post PhD experience. On top of that the out of turn promotion is offered after 3 years, so technically they meet the MHRD guidelines. Six years post PhD with three years at the level of assistant professor.
@ Anon June 18, 2014 at 8:30 PM,
Bogus logic !
@ another Anon June 18, 2014 at 8:30 PM,
Poor thinking ! even getting promoted in 4.5 yrs is out of turn promotion. Even this violates the rule of MHRD and is illegal (As per prof. Sriram)
@ Anon June 18, 2014 at 8:30 PM,
you say IISc recruits candidates as Asst. Prof with 3 yrs of post-Ph.D experience and then after 3 yrs he is eligible for promotion.
How about the post-Ph.D experience that you said is already as Asst Professor (contract) in an IIT????
What is your logic now???????
MHRD rules:
Promotion to associate prof requires 3 years at the level of asst prof.
Promotion to prof requires 4 years at the level of assoc prof.
How does promotion after 4.5 years each violate the rules?
Who are you to accuse me of poor thinking? Show what is wrong above or shut up.
@ Anon June 18, 2014 at 9:05 PM,
This is how it violates the MHRD rule (As per Prof. Sriram):
for promotion to assoc prof from asst prof requires 6 yrs of post-Ph.D exp including 3 yrs at asst prof level.
You are only considering the 3 yrs exp at asst prof level, then what about the total of 6 yrs compulsory rule of Post-Ph.D exp reqd for promotion to assoc prof. ???????????????
To get a regular assistant professor appointment you need 3 years of post PhD experience. On top of that you have to work at least for three years in the assistant professor level to get promoted to associate. In total you have 6 years post PhD experience that includes three years at the level of assistant professor. I hope this clarifies your doubt.
Let me give you an example.
regular promotion is six years in iisc. anything earlier is called out of turn. Less than 10% of promotions are out of turn and usually happens only in 5 years. That is 10% of cases are promoted in 5 years and regular cases in 6 cases.
X got his ph.d in 2006. joined IISc in 2009. then eligible for promotion in 2012. this is called out of turn. otherwise, he is eligible in 2015. getting in 3 years is impossible in iisc.
Take another case X got his ph.d in 2006, joined IISc in 2008 and he is eligible for promotion only in 2012, which is out of turn and 2014 for regular.
Take another case X got his ph.d in 2006, joined IISc in 2011 and he is eligible for promotion only in 2014, which is out of turn and 2017 for regular.
he has to satisfy both (6 years after ph.d and 3 years as asst prof. to be considered). normally, it is very difficult to get in 3 years.
From associate prof to prof, minimum is 4 according to mhrd. I think Prof. Giri got in 4 years but that is itself very rare. Less than 10% get in 5 years..others are all normal i.e., six years.
Hope it is clear for you.
@ Anon June 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM,
All what you are saying is clear to me already.
I was talking of out of turn promotion by relaxing (waiving off) the 3 yrs after becoming regular. Say it can be reduced by 2 yrs....
MHRD can allow such exceptions, which prof. Sriram is saying is illegal...I dont endorse such statement. Instead IIT should encourage performance based promotion by relaxing these old orthodox non-sensible rules !!
MHRD can allow such exceptions, which prof. Sriram is saying is illegal...I dont endorse such statement.
Who are you? Smriti Irani? who cares what you endorse or not.
"should encourage performance based promotion"
what is performance?
MHRD can not make exceptions for professors who publish 10 more papers..let them win the nobel prize and they can be promoted directly to professors.
Exceptions should be deserving.
There are certain simple benchmarks used to review your application when you apply for associate professorship. The most important is student supervision, how many M.Tech students graduated under you. Second how many papers you published after joining in IIT. PhD students being supervised. Sponsored research projects obtained. Finally administrative duties performed and teaching scores. Even in IITs getting a promotion just after three years of joining is rare. The selection committees meets only twice a year so usually it takes 3-4 years if you perform very well to get promoted to associate professor after joining as regular assistant professor. What I mean by regular is you should be given a AGP of 8000 at the time of joining. visiting and contract appointments don't have an AGP of 8000.
@ Anon of June 18, 2014 at 10:10 PM:
Lets shut down all indian institutions since Nobel Prize has not been won in half a century. Isn't maintaing them more costly with great hassles than promoting someone out of turn ?
One request: since you have not won it for sure and most likely you are a Prof. who has stopped research since you will not win it, please enlighten our way by demoting yourself one or two ranks and return that cumulative salary drawn out of tax payers money with interest to Prime Ministers Relief Fund.
Out of turn promotion might be coveted, but in turn associate or full professorship is not an entry to Diwani Khas either. Do something meaningful or get demoted, by your conscience if not by MHRD.
at Anon, June 18, 2014 at 10:10 PM,
According to you only winning Nobel prize makes one exceptional !
You are an example of those category of people who pull others down, simply because you cannot advance ahead...
Nonsense argument!!
June 19, 2014 at 8:36 AM@ please tell us what do you think is exceptional?
@June 19, 2014
It is strange why all the IITs could not produce a single Nobel laureate in their whole history. Although they boost to be research institute instead of accepting the fact that IITs are famous abroad because of their B.Tech., not MS/PhD. I do agree that all the institute except IITs should be closed as they don't consider other indian institutes of their leve,..
Why to waste time in doing MS/PhD from Indian Univ when in interview only IITs candidates are going to be selected. Better to close these programmes..
@ Anon June 19, 2014 at 8:44 AM,
This is how exceptional can be defined (based on my colleagues performance compared to the rest in the CSE department):
1. After joining IIT, he has produced 24 publications in last 2.5 yrs. This includes very high impact factor journals, blind review conferences, books, Patents (US and Indian both).
In comparison, the dept in avg has around 4 papers in last 2.5 yrs (does NOT include any books, Patents and significant good quality jrnl papers).
2. The candidate has already supervised a Ph.D. to completion almost (thesis is submitted).
On the other hand, no other in the dept have any Ph.D. student who has thesis submitted.
3. He has sponsored research projects from Govt which is also about to completion. Only few others have sponsored projects.
4. Has innumerable B.Tech supervised and completed. The best in the dept flock to him. Others get 2nd category ones.
5. Won some govt research awards, which others hasent.
6. He was head of IT at our institute so definitely had lot of administrative duties. Inspite of this, his performance is excellent !!
7. Finally he is way below 30 yrs of age.
Thats y (above 7 reasons) I call him exceptional.
Need any more to prove ?
Very funny discussion going on. If nobel prize is the sole criterion for exceptionalism, many of the engineering departments of some of the top universities in the world needs to be closed, since there's no engineering nobel prize and count of engineers who has got nobel prizes in science or medicine are limited.
My three small points:
* Please take notice of other reputed awards. I heard CNR Rao saying in an interview nobody made news in India when he won Dan David Prize, Hughes Medal, etc., which are seen with great respect in some literate countries.
* Not every innovation may be worthy of a nobel but every small innovations must be encouraged so that there is an innovation culture. Unless we reward these small innovations, we cannot expect to the meet the listed missions of IITs, forget about a nobel prize.
* We need to develop a system where someone's failures can help in somebody's success, not where one failure will try his/her best to make/mock everybody else a failure.
Ironically, we all indulge in hero-worship when one wins a big award but offer no support to the same person when he/she was trying hard to become a hero.
"After joining IIT, he has produced 24 publications in last 2.5 yrs. This includes very high impact factor journals, blind review conferences, books, Patents (US and Indian both)."
I feel that with all administrative duties your saying and in high impact journals to publish 24 papers in 2.5 yrs is a Herculian Task. Of course, if he is named in papers collaborating with others is a different story. Atleast it takes 4 months to get published a high impact journal paper. Your claim of 24 papers in 2.5 yrs is amazing.
Nobel prizes for Indian scientists will be a very rare gesture until we work hard with out competing with others. All nobel prizes are not awarded on the basis of no of publications. I think the Quality and impact towards science is really important.
It is really paining to observe statements like out of turn promotions are based on the number of publications. Please look at the quality and impact of publications which can bring greater heights to Indian science. As far now there are no vision thinkers in Indian science.Please Do not quarrel here about the promotions in your institutes , please discuss what could be done so that we can bring quality science in India. Becoming Asst or Asso Prof by making some publications is not important. When we will see Americans coming to India to do research? When we will be self-sufficient with out depending on other countries?
Please think over instead of arguing for promotions. I hope definitely we will get Nobel prize. Nobel Prize is for one single discovery not for number of High impact publications
@Anon above:
"Do not quarrel here about the promotions in your institutes , please discuss what could be done so that we can bring quality science in India."
As I mentioned before, we can't target median or mediocre Ph.D. students (at present, we attract poor ones on an average) and produce high quality papers. We lose some of our best students to US universities, and sometimes compete with the researchers in those universities to produce quality result. This is not the way to go. When quality research takes a back seat, the faculty members start discussing lesser important (but important nevertheless) things like promotions. In this entire thread having 1773 comments involving "prospective faculty" of IITs/IISc, we can hardly find 73 comments that actually discuss about improving science/engineering education and research in India.
Thanks to Prof. Sriram for sharing the link to an article in a previous post. I think the following quote says a lot...
"
... Many NRI's have a large-sized chip on their shoulder, especially if they are mediocre. At the risk of offending netters, I feel constrained to point out that there are many, many mediocre schools here in the U.S., and that the education they offer is not necessarily better than what one can get in India. There are also many humdrum jobs here. (The fact that they pay 30 or 40 times as much is a different matter.) Whether it is in industry or in research, the emphasis in the U.S. is on marketing: Talk fast and hope no one finds out the truth. But, as Lincoln said, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. So one should not be surprised if his U.S. qualification does not "automatically" make him preferrable to a Home-grown product. In my opinion, there is no institutionalized prejudice against NRI's as my correspondent implies. But I would say that all Indian employers (myself included) will study a person very carefully to see if the person will really fit in....
"
@ Anon June 19, 2014 at 9:33 AM,
I completely agree with you.
Unless strong papers published by faculty members are applauded, IIT will remain a dead research system.
Publishing quality papers in prestigious venues adds to the reputation of IIT system worldwide and needs reward such as encouraging early promotion.
Som people who claim winning Nobel prize as the sole criterion, wants to convert IIT into a graveyard for doing research. Which university abroad (including MIT, Stanford etc) DOES NOT have a reward system (through award, early promotion etc) for faculty members ??????????????????? Which top ranking university in engineering evaluates their faculty member's on winning Nobel prize ?????????????????
They all rely on qualitative and quantitative measurement of publications (As well as funded research projects).
Its silly on some ones part to highlight Nobel prize as a criteria for early promotion. If someone wins Nobel prize, he will no longer in IIT !!!!!!!!!!!! The whole world will be after him/her. People lack common sense.
@ Anon June 19, 2014 at 11:30 AM,
I said about my colleague: "After joining IIT, he has produced 24 publications in last 2.5 yrs. This includes very high impact factor journals, blind review conferences, books, Patents (US and Indian both)."
This number 24 includes not only in high impact journals but also blind review conferences, books, Patents (US and Indian both).
So your statements: "I feel that with all administrative duties your saying and in high impact journals to publish 24 papers in 2.5 yrs is a Herculian Task" is not correct. Because you assumed 24 papers in ONLY high impact journals. Nevertheless, its still remains a Herculian Task that I agree.
Your statement: "Of course, if he is named in papers collaborating with others is a different story" is incorrect. My colleague does not have any collaborator. He works with only 2 Ph.D. students.
Kindly stop expecting of Nobel prize in IIT where people are trying their level best to discourage performance (by not rewarding them). First promote innovation, appropriate incentive system then talk of Nobel Prize !!
Every research center/university, R&D organization such as MIT, caltech, Stanford, NASA have reward system for their scientists ....but not IIT....this is utterly shameful ! and IIT expect to be the best in the world ...funny!
Is It right that 3 year postdoc experience from Korea/Taiwan (PhD from Indian top university), even with high quality publications such as Advanced materials, Nano Letters etc with more than 10 papers (high impacts), is not enough for shortlisting for interview in IITs ?
My comment below pertain to the discussion between Saswata and iitmsriram on students and salaries.
1. I wonder when people will realize that we can't get brilliant students, faculty, staff and that too "saste mein" (cheap).
2. This "proposal" to increase fellowships to xyz per month is a product of not thinking hard enough about the problem at hand. There is nothing to applaud; it just postpones the problem to some years down the line. Institute should decide these salaries based on their cost structures and their needs. A thinking, hardworking and purposeful institute would tie these to inflation, job market etc and leave this decision to departments to figure out.
3. Has anyone checked how much it costs to attend a conference and then come to this figure of 1.25L? I think it is not sufficient. Furthermore, if students are to go to an international conference once in their tenure, you can imagine how little exposure they would have when they become faculty somewhere and how underdeveloped our education system will continue to be. They should be going to 2-3 conferences in 4/5 years. Since most grants don't allow money for student travel, IITs have to fork this out themselves.
4. Of course IITs don't have the money for all this. But it is a pity that despite this, no IIT has tried to actively go about raising funds either through its faculty, its fees or alumni.
5. All the above steps seem to be motivated by the attitude that "without having to do any extra work, how can we tweak things a bit". This kind of tinkering is delusional and its benefits are short-lived. I can't see how we can get too far without hard work, courage and sacrifice.
@Ankur
Very true. But you and me can do nothing about it even though it affects the quality of our research.
The salary of the PhD student can be increased by other means. If can get a project you can use the funds to pay him around 10-15k extra per month. The conference budget is a difficult one to tackle.
This is to clarify.
IISc also follows
Promotion to associate prof requires 6 years experience with 3 years at the level of asst prof. Promotion to prof requires 4 years at the level of assoc prof.
Some exceptions are also made. But the exceptions are for really deserving candidates.
In one case, a faculty was recruited directly as associate professor after just 3 years of post doctoral experience. He was listed as top 30 scientists under 30 by science. Special permission at various levels was obtained before the appointment was made. The faculty stayed in IISc for one year and then quit to join MIT.
Out of turn promotions are not based on number of publications - it is based on impact. The papers are sent for review to top scientists in the world and asked whether the people really deserve out of turn or whether normal is sufficient.
Numbers are often provided as a guideline not for counting.
Giridhar
@Anon above:
Surely, a Ph.D. student can be paid slightly extra from the project funds even though there are rules against it at some IITs. In IIT Guwahati, there used to a stupid rule during Prof. Barua's tenure that they can only be paid about Rs. 9K extra.
However, this doesn't solve the problem as one can't advertise this top-up salary to attract better students. In most of the DST funds, the fund is promised for one year at a time (which is fine) and that money doesn't come on time as well (which is not at all fine). If such extra top-up salary can't be used to attract better students, it can only used to "finish off" the funds. We should be allowed to adopt the US model in which we get research grants and advertise a competitive salary for our Ph.D. students. If the Ph.D. student can't perform, he/she can either be demoted to the government salary scale or be terminated altogether.
@ankur laments "Of course IITs don't have the money for all this. But it is a pity that despite this, no IIT has tried to actively go about raising funds either through its faculty, its fees or alumni". Really? IITB and IITM raise about 20 crores a year from alums now, with much work going on in the last few years. Much of this is endowment money, so the annual availability is somewhere between 5 and 10 crores a year and that won't be enough to cover just the pg students travel cost even if we spend it all on that. Both IITB and IITM are trying to scale up alumnus revenue generation and get to 50 crores a year, but that will take a few years. If you think you have a magic formula by which you can achieve this in a year, I think your Director will be happy to hear about it today.
About fees. Of course, it would be rather pointless to ask MS and PhD scholars to pay 1 lakh a year fees so you can turn around and give them 1 lakh a year travel grant. Reality is that of the 8000 odd students enrolled, less than 2000 pay fees (PG's pay little fees and about 50% of UGs don't pay fees either). And, the fees went up from 50K to 90K per year last year. Even with this, the total annual revenue from fees is only around 20 crores, does not give much elbow room. Like I said, if you have some magic formula to change these numbers overnight, I think your Director would be happy to meet with you today.
Dear Professor Sriram. I was offered a regular assistant professor appointment in an IIT. When I joined I had around 2 years of postdoc experience and 1 year of post M.Tech experience. Techically do you think I am eligible to apply for associate professorship after three years of serving as an assistant professor? Or I will be eligible to apply after four years of serving as assistant professor? I will have 6 years of post PhD experience only after serving 4 years as assist professor. Please share your thoughts. Its not that I want to apply for the position, I just want to know the rule.
@ anon above
Was your post MTech but pre PhD experience considered during your recruitment?
I have a question which the people here can probably answer.
I currently have around two years of post-PhD experience. But due to my family's circumstances (my spouse moves to a new location), I will leave my postdoc and move to a new place without a job. I'm not sure whether or not do I get a relevant postdoc position at this new place. Both of us plan to apply to IIX in about a year's time to return to India.
Do you think that me being jobless for a year will have an adverse affect on my application? Many places in Europe, for example, take into account a break in the CV due to family reasons.
-PrSa
@June 20, 2014 at 1:30 PM Yes, they considered my post M.Tech experience when they offered me the assistant professor position. That is the reason they gave me a regular appointment not a contractual one.
@ankur, do you think directors are not doing any of these which are within their power? Several are simply not within reach. For example, fees (and scholarships) are set by the IIT council and this is in the IIT act. Directors can lobby to increase fees, but the council is chaired by the Minister for HRD and has several MPs as members. Someone has to convince them. Paying faculty a portion of earnings of sponsored projects (grants) has legal impediments. Higher overheads is also not easy to get, today the pressure is from sponsors who want to reduce overheads (and MHRD, of course, will give no overheads). Finding professionals to run services will end up costing more and money will have to be found to pay for that - but that is inevitable and happening. One of the last bastions to fall will be the "hostel warden". IITM is planning to shift to "residence hall managers", but some of these changes are socially difficult to manage - even today, a good fraction of parents want faculty wardens to be proxy parents and this does not fit with the plans of (research) ambitious faculty (or the students, for that matter).
@asso-prof-aspiring anon, the rule is open to interpretation. IITM was interpreting as pre- and post-PhD experience put together, but this has been objected to by AG audit, so we are now interpreting as 6 years post-PhD experience to be eligible for asso prof. As long as the local AG does not object, other IIX's are free to use pre- plus post-PhD experience. The argument given was that generally, in government practice, when a post is advertised as qualification X plus Y years experience, only post qualification experience is counted. Even today, most (all?) IIX's follow this practice for non-teaching recruitments. Given that, and the pay circular reading "For appointment as Associate Professor, one should have a Ph.D with first class or equivalent in the appropriate branch with a very good academic record throughout and a minimum of six years Teaching1 Industry1 Research experience, of which at least three years' should be at the level of Assistant Professors, Senior Scientific Officer / Senior Design Engineer.", it is difficult to counter the interpretation of 6 years post-PhD experience.
@Prof. Sriram
Does the IIT act "actually" prohibit any of the innovations that Ankur has suggested? In reality, IIT act gives more autonomy to the IITs than what is currently being used.
For example, Ankur didn't suggest a direct increase of student fees. He was suggesting that a student getting a job through placement must pay a percentage of his/her first year salary to the institute. Is it "really" prohibited? Can you specify the relevant clause in the IIT act?
Every other suggestion he has given is possible to be worked out within the law, along with my suggestion to let us "advertise" competitive Ph.D. salaries from our research grants.
Sorry to say this, but it looks like many Directors are indeed not putting enough thoughts to improve the institutes within the rule! They can do much better!
@asso-prof-aspiring anon
In case they considered your pre PhD experience while joining same should be counted towards your promotion.
Also as Dr Sriram quoted "of which at least three years' should be at the level of Assistant Professors" implies that the criteria is only 3 years of being AP (regular) as qualification for AP(regular) is PhD + 3 years.
It is interesting to see the criteria for Asso Prof for NIT below-
Associate Professor
PB-4 with Grade Pay
of ` 9500/-
Ph.D. with consistently
good academic record.
06yrs After Ph.D. or 09 years total
(not counting Ph.D. enrolment
period) out of which 03 years
should be after Ph.D. Three years
at the level of Assistant Professor
with AGP of Rs.8000/- or
equivalent in a reputed university,
R & D Lab. or relevant industry
I don't see why hiring professionals, especially fund managers will cost us more. This means the cost of this professional would be more than the benefit. In that case no asset management company would remain in business.
Prof Sriram, since you are saying some things are beyond the reach: has the IIT council constituted a committee to look at the IIT act, come up with a revised version that meets our requirements? Even as just an academic exercise? Or even made an attempt to revise its own rules, such as removing the uniformity in fees?
@ankur, the council will have to be convinced that the act needs a relook. I am not sure how many Directors and Chairmen will agree with you on that. Even if the council is convinced, the parliament will then have to be convinced to pass the new act (well, if the Minister is convinced, I suppose the party / parliament will go along). About non-uniformity of fees, perhaps you are convinced, but will all Directors and Chairmen be? The fees are now contributing about 10% of the revenue budget (after the near-doubling last year), how much higher will it be allowed to go and how quickly? MP's don't like to increase fees as it almost always makes for bad press. The Kakodkar committee made some major recommendation on this front, but all that seems to be on hold.
IITs are essentially government institutions. They can not be very efficient, atleast administratively. All recruitments at the staff level have reservations and incompetent people can not be thrown out.
Most of the faculty who do administration do reasonably well but that should be the job of Assistant registrars while the faculty should be doing research. Instead, they send out letters, talk to experts etc.
At the higher level, the directors have to listen to the minister, who would want to implement popular schemes such as more reservation, less fees etc and no one cares for merit at that level.
Prof Sriram, in that case I should ask a more basic question. What do you think the consensus opinion of the ministry, IIT council etc wants IITs to be like? If the act is not to be changed, processes are not to be changed, fees are not to be changed, there is no hiring of professionals, basically nothing important is going to done, then there are fundamental limits on how high we can rise as an institution. Does this limit agree with the consensus "vision" or "desire" of the above set of people?
My own take is we are delusional - we have a lofty vision, which gives us a mental kick and makes us feel nice, but no practical plans to achieve it.
I agree with Ankur. The IIT family as a whole should look proactively.
It should take a clear stance on questions of opening new IITS or upgrading the old ones.
Policy decisions can not be taken without participation of stakeholders at least in democracy!
@iitmsriram
Sorry for digressing from the important discussion and raising a personal question.
Can you comment on possibilities of being hired as Assistant Professor in IIT Madras in Engineering after age of 35?
Thanks
MS
@ankur, why is it "all or nothing"? As I have already mentioned "Finding professionals to run services will end up costing more and money will have to be found to pay for that - but that is inevitable and happening." Several things are happening, but some things are much more difficult to do. For example, you mention fund managers. To mange what? There are significant limits on how government grants can be invested, endowments have less limitations, alumni donations may not have any limitations and most institutions have found ways to work with this. By the way, I don't think the council or ministry have any detailed vision for the IITs, but the IITs themselves mostly do and I don't believe any of them count on changes to the IIT act and such.
@ms, yes, possible and it happens. But there should be some reason why one is coming up at that age. For example, if one worked after bachelors for 10 years in some standard (non-academic-oriented) industry job, then decided to go back to get PhD and is doing well along that line, this would definitely be given consideration. I have seen some cases like this where the candidate was told at the time of offer not to compare themselves with others their age, but accept the "offset". Even this year, we have a candidate who is being promoted to professor at almost age 50, this person joined as assistant professor at age 37 or 38 after working in industry for about 10 years. So, yes, it is possible.
Out of turn promotions in IISc is very very hard to get. More than the review by external people, to get an invitation from the Institute for consideration of out of turn promotion is one of the hardest obstacle. This requires internal evaluation and convincing people at multiple levels. Many of these obstacles evaporate if the promotion is after normal period.
However these days IISc have really clamped down on the criteria for tenure after 5 years. there have been many documented cases when people have been denied tenure and their 5 year contracts have been extended by 2-3 years. Compared to that IITs are much better interms of promotion with no tenure criteria.
http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/devesh-kapur-can-india-s-higher-education-be-saved-from-the-rule-of-babus-114062200733_1.html
@iitmsriram
Many thanks for your reply. Currently I am 35 (with 7years standard industry experience) but do not have enough papers (only 2) to sail through the competition.
The age criteria was making me undecided about post doc which may raise the paper count. I presume from your statement that at 37 with good publications I stand a chance.
MS
Can anyone tell me when is the selection committee meeting for 2014-2015 ramanujan fellowship?? I applied in june first week
I recently applied to IIT BHU in ceramics department(deadline was 27th March). I did not hear anything, however, on their website it now says "2nd phase of faculty recruitment will start soon....application received till July 7, 2014 will be considered". Does that mean they have completed the earlier cycle and I did not get shortlisted. Does anybody have any idea?
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