Monday, October 12, 2009

AP on contract

This is a lot of discussion on my colleague, Abi's, blog on the issue of appointment of assistant professor on contract. The director of IIT-G, Dr. Gautam Barua, has been patiently responding to the comments of various commentators. I had met him when I visited IIT-G as part of the GATE committee. I laud him because he answers queries in a blog ! In response to the government notification on recruitment of assistant professor on contract, Professor Barua writes,

Some of you have succeeded in hitting a raw nerve in me :-). Directors are being seen as spineless in not opposing OCAP. What is the origin of OCAP? It seems to come out of IISc! Please consider the following: Appointment at the entry level on contract: How did this clause come up? This came up because it was a recommendation of the Goverdhan Mehta Committee. In fact. Prof. Mehta has been quoted by Business Standard in a recent interview as follows:

Was there anything in the IIT wishlist which could not be accommodated?
Yes. There was one point of disagreement. The IIT directors wanted fresh PhDs as assistant professors and we did not allow that. We wanted PhDs with some research experience in the industry so that they can launch themselves into research immediately. Experienced PhDs have a sufficient level of maturity and independently do research and that is when they imbibe the attributes of a mentor. This could be one reason why the IITs have established themselves as premier institutes for undergraduate studies but are not known for their research.
First what does Mehta's committee's recommend? Mehta's committee recommended two years post-Ph.D experience for recruitment at the Rs. 30,000 basic with AGP of Rs. 8000. It also recommended that if one has three years experience at AGP of Rs. 8000 OR five years post-Ph.D experience, one can be directly placed at PB-4 with Rs. 37,400 as basic with AGP of Rs. 9000.

This was changed to three years experience (not necessarily post-Ph.D) by MHRD. It has been a general feeling that faculty with at least an one year post doc experience in engineering and two year post doc experience in sciences perform better in research. Data can not be generated to prove otherwise because everyone in IISc is recruited only with the above profile.

Anyway, I do believe that the selection committees will ultimately decide who to hire as Asst. Prof. and let everyone start at 30+8K and move to PB4 after three years. Therefore, I do not think many will be hired as assistant professors on contract.

106 comments:

Anonymous said...

"I do believe that the selection committees will ultimately decide who to hire as Asst. Prof. and let everyone start at 30+8K and move to PB4 after three years. Therefore, I do not think many will be hired as assistant professors on contract."

-If that is the case in reality, then I hope to see the advertisement of IIX with the line "for exceptional candidates, 3 yrs experience rule will be waived".

Then i guess there is no problem..and no harm. Otherwise this OCAP is posing a threat indeed esp. in engineering dept.
Also I would like to request all the IIX to publicize this (what you said) very well like the way they did their 'hunger strike' which already created lot of scares and confusions in people's mind atleast in USA.
Believe me this OCAP crap has already sent a cold and disgusting wave to minds of several phds/postdocs mind in USA.
Thanks,
-Prasanth (joining IIX in December as permanent AP)

Anonymous said...

Prashanth: I completely agree with you.

My PhD student and Post Docs are also confused about applying to IITs after this OCAP issue.

A professor in US

Anonymous said...

This is Prasanth again..

I was just wondering IIT faculty fed did their hunger strike over several issues and vouched for future asst. prof. But do they really care about? then why did not they speak a single word about start-up funds. Merely 5-10 lacs of start-up fund will not fetch any AP for a single piece of equipment. I know IISc is diff since it offers a very good start-up funds, if someone bargain or ask for..but its not the case in many IITs.
Cant they ask MHRD to raise the start-up fund.
Its amusing that MHRD is looking to adopt tenure-track model of US without totality...

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasanth,

In your view which one is better for a fresh Phd among the following?

a CSIR fellowship like Pandit Nehru fellowship which offers 35k per month + HRA in one of the labs plus 3 Lakhs of funding

or as an OCAP at an iit?

please give ur opinion

---fresh Phd

SKJain said...

There are two more points to think:
1. Somebody who joined just few months back, before the announcement of MHRD notification, are offered Asst. Professor with less than or even zero experience. They will be placed at 30K+8K AGP, with one year probation. Now if one joins now, he will be place under contract for 3 years with 21K+6K AGP. so, they will feel de motivated for 03 years comparing to their PEERS.
2.Some body with 10 years of pre-PhD teaching/research/industry experience, with even 10 increments will be placed at 30K basic with those who joined before August 2009 MHRD notification. He/She will feel humiliated for 03 years and others will enjoy only by the virtue of joining before the notifications.

this is really going to pull down the IIX system

Anonymous said...

Hi fresh PhD,

Go for a good postdoc in the west rather than CSIR fellow./OCAP etc. You get a much better experience (professional + quality of life wise) & better research facilities & of course, much better savings!! (~ Rs. 70k pm.) In all probability, you'll have a better research profile and more papers than any of these temporary CSIR/Nehru/IISc fellowship/OCAP etc. This is prob. more respected too - and in case you wish to come back to India, will make your chances higher in getting a permanent post at IIX etc. Please -don't even consider this OCAP crap - start hunting for postdoc or industry jobs.

-Anon

Anonymous said...

Hi Anon,

thanks for your reply. what you are saying is wat everyone says. But I would want to know is this OCAP really a crap deal? and also a fellowship at places like NCL, NPL is also not good. I have seen some excellent work coming from these two places especially in my area (condensed matter physics theory) Even a post doc here is temporary on one year contract and I am very skeptical abt jobs in industry I have friend working for GE who did a Phd in CFD and is now writing C and C++ programs. Please someone give an honest advise rather than just dismissing certain options.

---fresh PHD

Anonymous said...

Dear Fresh PhD,

You will have to make up your mind as to what you want. One can count several success and failure stories in IIX, National Labs and US. So, dont go by them unless there is a well defined pattern.

Anon @October 13, 2009 1:05 PM gave you a well balanced advice. Of course, you need to find a good advisor during your Post doc in US/West. That is most critical. If you can publish some high quality papers in couple of post doc years in US/west then you will have more options i.e. better networking in US which will go long way to build your career, AP faculty position in IIX (not OCAP) or even a faculty position in US University.

Anonymous said...

@ fresh PhD
Well given those two choices, I would suggest you to go for OCAP if you get the offer. no doubt about that. because this OCAP is a good tool to get into IIT as faculty for those guys who are doing PhD in India. Firstly, there is a chance in getting permanency after 3 yrs. since you have been there in your phd stint, you know the system, know how things work ther..you know how administrative things go..So you will have better estimation about time and pace of a project or setting up you lab..moreover you can still access you phd advisor's lab also some valuable tips nevertheless. Which i cannot even imagine from my american prof. So just go for OCAP and get it.
also it will be easy for you in networking with other profs/scientists in India.

btw: i dont have any idea about the postdoc position in India..i dont know how much freedom you will get or whats the future of that, so i can not comment on that.

what i would suggest "go for OCAP".
Thanks
-Prasanth

Anonymous said...

Hi,

Thanks Prasanth and Anon@October 14, 2009 12:28 AM for your advise. Anon@October 13, 2009 1:05 PM definitely gives a balanced advise. But if money is the motive for me then there is no reason for me to leave US at anytime. But my motives are something else. So I am not bothered about my salary though wat I see is that the current salary structure for APs which ranges from 35k to 50k in hand which I think gives a decent life especially if accomodation is taken care of. All I am concerned is that if I am going to have minimum facilities to conduct my research like a supercomputing cluster for the theoretical work I do. The IIX doesn't seem to give me a good account of the facilities they have in this area because of which I got confused in the first place. Anon@October 14, 2009 12:28 AM thanks for your great advise one should not generalize the IIXs situations your advise really changed my thinking and I think so many anon posts greatly damning the OCAP has really affected me. @Prasanth I am a fresh Phd from US do you think I should be afraid of any administrative concerns.

Gautam Barua, IITG said...

Hello Everybody,
Let me assure you that a career in an IIX is great, OCAP or no OCAP. Negative things always get pointed out by persons writing anonymously. There are bound to be problems in any Institute, and individual grouses are bound to be there, justified or not. But what about the positive things? If you join an IIX, you will get housing, medical benefits for you and your family, paid trips to "home" (yearly if you are in IITG), light teaching load, a good research atmosphere. There has been some discussion on start-up grants. This not directly administered by MHRD. Each Institute gives it. We do not want to be very generous with it because we want the incoming faculty to apply to funding agencies and get money into the Institute. Agencies like DST, DIT, other Ministries, have lot of funds. Fresh PhDs may not have experience in formulating research proposals, so a start up grant is given to get them started.
IISc does not hire fresh PhDs it seems. But we aggressively do. In many Engg disciplines we cannot afford to wait for a candidate to do 2-3 years of post-doc. IISc is starting UG programmes. They will soon "fall in line"!
As far as OCAP is concerned, IITG is making offers for regular positions to fresh PhDs. The only thing is, to adhere to OCAP, the person has to wait for 3 years before becoming regular . What is the implication? For 99% of cases, the only difference is that the period of probation will now be 3 years instead of one year. Even here, in IITs, the probation period can be extended indefinitely, so looking at it from this angle, there will be no difference. Yes, being "not regular" means you can be removed from service much more easily than if you were regular. On the other hand, you will get all benefits of a regular faculty. But, the way some of you are worrying, it would seem that IIX administration people are a bunch sadists, luring innocent PhDs, only to harass them and throw them out! Nothing can be further from the truth. If I have been successful in getting a good candidate, I will be very reluctant to throw him out for silly things. We used to hire candidates who submit their thesis as Sr. Lecturers. How many have we thrown out? Hardly anyone.
So this OCAP thing is a psychologically bad thing, sending wrong signals to prospective faculty. But let me assure all of you, you have nothing to worry about. You are good, you are sincere, an IIX is the place for you (especially IITG :-) )!

Anonymous said...

I have received an offer for the position of assistant professor from the IISc.I intend to join in Feb 2010. I am wrapping up my post doc in the US (my 3rd year). I also have another very competetive offer from another state school here in the US. I understand that its I who has to make the decision, however, I was wondering if any of you will help me speculate about what the future holds for a "woman faculty" in sciences either in India or here in the US.

Giri@iisc said...

Dear fresh Ph.D,

First, note the excellent points that Dr. Barua has made. I agree with all of them.

The difference between national labs like NCL and IISc is the students. In the former, getting students is difficult.

In IISc, it is unlikely we will hire anyone without postdoc experience. For sciences, we require 3 years postdoc and for engg, 1 to 1.5 years. It is likely that everyone will be directly as AP and not as AP on contract. Out UG program is only in sciences, so this hiring policy will continue.

Let me assure you that hardly anyone is thrown out and hardly any one will be thrown out even if hired on contract. No IIT/IISc will invest time, money and space on a faculty for three years and throw him/her out.

The research atmosphere is similar to US universities. Funding is much easier in India (compared to USA).

To Prasanth,

"-If that is the case in reality, then I hope to see the advertisement of IIX with the line "for exceptional candidates, 3 yrs experience rule will be waived"."

Why do IIX advertise like this? We already do this. I have mentioned wherein a Ph.D with 2 years experience was hired as an associate professor in IISc because he was exceptional. We have promoted people (like me) early. IIT-M recently promoted a faculty from assistant professor to full professor in 6 years. Exceptions will always be there.

Giridhar

SKJain said...

We fully agree with Prof Barua's statement.He has done a lot for the IIT system and enjoys the respect of IIT community at large.Being in IITs for 3 decades or so, he knows the IIT system very well. so prosperous, new faculties who are willing to join IITs, should join without any negative feelings in their mind.

Anonymous said...

Thank you very much Prof. Giridhar and Prof. Barua for your comments. Now I think I should be able to make my decision soon. But I hope that this OCAP is soon converted to a tenure system similar to the one followed in US i.e offering the same salary as permanent employees and then evaluating them in either 3 or 5 years. I would like to give a suggestion to Prof Barua. Please advertise more about the research facilities you have at your institution I mean the actual infrastructure. I think all IIXs are at fault with this. The websites have minimal information. I think this is the first step in attracting best talent. Please advertise more on the facilities you have, the collaborations you have with other institutions and industry and if you can use their facilities for research as an IIX employee. I think this is very helpful. Politics are present everywhere. I guess one should not generalize certain IIXs situations as Dr Giri had pointed out.

Giri@iisc said...

To the last anon:

IISc requires that the candidate visits the department of IISc before he/she is considered and an offer is made. At that time, hopefully the faculty will tell about the facilities, collaborations etc.

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof Madras,
I beg to defer with this rule "IISc requires that the candidate visits the department of IISc before he/she is considered and an offer is made."

- IISc should understand that its really hard to visit India for many people. let me tell you the situation. most of the phd stdnts in USA visit India right after their phd defense and then they come back and join as a postdoc in national lab or in good univs. Now right after phd very few people take the decision about applying for a faculty position in IISc. After 1 year of joining as postdoc in Engg dept, they send the application and iisc asks them to visit but this is the time period when most of the postdocs need to get H1B visa stamping in US consulate if they visit India and in the last one year say around 90% of the applicants faced 2-3 months delay. So its quite impossible to take that chance. As you know its generally after 1-2yrs postdoc experience in engg dept, one look for settlement and S/he gets a position either in acad or industry in general. Because of this IISc rule, i have seen many to accept the offer from IITs because they dont ask us to visit the campus in a mandatory manner. Its completely understandable that one should visit the campus and interact with the dept faculty members. But with the present advanced technology, there are many ways to have chat or give the presentations over web. Its really pathetic to see that the internet speed in IISc is so slow.
I think iisc should do something about this. Otherwise if IISc thinks that its the best insti in india and people will come there for their own interests then they are living in with gr8 misconceptions. Everyone wants to be there its true. but sometimes its really not possible in reality to abide by that rule of visiting IISc.
Personally, i have seen one of my friends went to IISc and got delayed his visa for 3 months, of course he got the offer in IISc. But i know atleast 7 other people including me who were scared to visit India just for this IISc interview and all of us decided to join IITs. we thought may be after 5 yrs we can join IISc if we want to.
Forget about me, the other candidates did their phd in Ivy league univ in usa got numerous fellowship/awards and good publications (each of them has atleast one paper with citation over 60...oh except one candi).

I know, it matters least for the IISc whether we join or not..but its sad and unfortunate for us.

-Prasanth

Giri@iisc said...

Dear Prasanth,

It is not mandatory, it is the norm and it is preferred. Even last month, we have interviewed candidates via web (skype). If you have specific problems (visa, child etc), iisc would be glad to interview one by skype/web.

IISc has good internet connection.
Also, we give dedicated connection for a few hours if you want to interview a candidate by web. In the department for which I am the chairman, I give dedicated 2 MBps line for conducting classes over the web or for any conferencing. We have people from different countries teach our students. Our selection committee also interviews candidates through the web. So, I do not know the basis on which you claim our internet connections are pathetic. Compared to USA, yes. Compared to IITs, no.

The question was more on the facilities available, what each faculty thinks,collaborations etc. I feel that these questions are best answered in person because we spend 8 hours or so with a candidate, which is not possible on a web conferencing.

However, many of us (including me) did not visit IISc and give a talk before we were offered a position !

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

I'm also a woman, engineer, and PhD student in US thinking to apply in India. Though the post is "old", it would be nice to hear an answer to Annon October 14, 2009 9:35 AM, about the future of woman faculty in sciences in India. Another point is the 32 years-old rule; is it relaxed when the woman took time off to take care of her children? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Hi, again I am the anon woman in science...

The active writers in this blog, please do communicate your thoughts on this issue - How do you think the work environment, funding, facilities, student quality etc compare in IISc versus a state university in the US.

A senior professor here at UPenn (who is from India) told me that the student quality of PhD candidates can be described as only mediocre. However, I tend to disagree with him...I recollect 8 years ago when I graduated with my bachelors degree, IISc was among the top places that I wanted to get into. However, due to some different circumstances, I went off to the US.
So, kindly shed some light on what are the most important challenges that new faculty (and women in particular) face.

Giri@iisc said...

"How do you think the work environment, funding, facilities, student quality etc compare in IISc versus a state university in the US."

Much of this has been answered in several of my previous posts and associated comments. Anyway, I will briefly summarize

IISc provides a start up grant of Rs. 20 lakhs or so and one can write proposals to government organizations and get much more money. If you are happy with around 50 lakh or so for your initial equipment and start your experiments, you should be fine. Funding agencies have an initial limit of 35 lakhs. But you can write three proposals to different funding agencies and get 35 lakhs each. If you need an equipment without which you can not work at all and this equipment costs Rs 2 crores, it is still workable but you have to convince a few people and will take longer (a year to review and start). If the department is willing to help, they can get more money and give it to you but the facility will be central (i.e., it will be shared).

Regarding facilities, computing facilities in IISc are excellent and setting up a large cluster for 50 lakhs is not a problem. Setting up good experimental facilities will take time but it can be done. There are also general facilities like TEM, NMR etc which are accessible to every faculty.

In USA, getting funding is very stressful even if you are in a top tier university. In India, funding is easy if you are in IISc/IIT. However, admin support and technical support needs lot of improvement. Unlike the USA, this is essentially a government job and, therefore, one can not be sacked for non-performance. Unlike the USA, where increments in salary is linked to performance, here everyone essentially gets the same salary.

Regarding students, I think they are comparable to the top 20 univ in USA. Many of my students have been very good and better than what I was at that age. The writing skills of many students require improvement but I think it is part of our job.

There is no rule of 32 year old etc., so I do not know what the comment is. There are special funding mechanisms for both doctorates and post-doctorates in sciences and engineering for women, especially for women who have taken a break for children. Such things do not apply for faculty positions. If you want to know about women who have excelled in science in India, look at
http://nanopolitan.blogspot.com/search?q=lilavati

To answer your last question, I think the most serious challenge a faculty faces after joining IISc/IIT is to remain motivated and publish.

If you have specific questions, please let me know. And do read the previous posts in the blog on this issue.

Thanks

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

Prof. Madras,

Thank you very much for your patient reply. Indeed, I aplogize, I wrote the entry before actually reading through the whole blog. (I was directed to this blog by my friend only recently).

Its yeoman service you render to all the new entrants and aspirants by your thoughtful and honest writings.

Thank you again.

Giri@iisc said...

Thank you. If you need any help, answers before/after you join IISc, please contact me. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

There was Pan-IIT Conference recently and after that many Directors have been visiting different schools to interact with PhDs/PDFs. One of the Directors told that OCAP is very much there and its equivalent to tenure-track system in US. But I beg to differ since the salaries are not different for a tenure-track faculty and he is treated equally. In fact, he admitted that its difficult to get Engineering PhDs with 3 years experience. So, one will have to be OCAP for 3 years before becoming an "AP" from "OCAP". When asked about those fresh PhDs (or ones with less than 3 years of experience) who have already joined as as AP before the MHRD notification was issued, he replied that they will be reverted to or redesignated as OCAP till they fulfill the 3 year criteria. Is this true? May be Prof. Barua or Prof. Gridhar can give their opinion.

BTW...I am posting as an Anon but there is no criticism. Since there is still some confusion, its about knowing the facts better. :)

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

itsriram,Giri@iisc,

Can you write the total salary (after 6th pay commission report implementation) for Asst Professor (old basic 12000)about to join in Y class city IIT(assume IITKgp, IIT Gandhinagar and IIT Ropar). What will be HRA for these cities. As you know faculty houses are not available in most of the new IIT's, how new faculty will be accommodated.

Anonymous said...

Many are comparing the OCAPs with the tenure system in US. This is very faulty comparison. In US, tenure earning period is 5 years immaterial of the fact whether the new faculty has 3 years or experience or is a fresh PhD. One might argue what is 5 years in US is 3 years in India. The key flaw to this is that anyone with three years of experience can walk in as regular AP and bypass this entire tenure process as per the new rule. Take the following example.
Person X does his Phd in a top Indian/US university with say decent number of publications and applies to IIX. But even though he has a great career but no post-PhD experience he is placed as OCAP for three years.
Now take Person Y who does his PhD from a mediocre Indian/US university with low publications. He spends three years as post doc and elevates himself in the same/comparable level as person X. Now when he is offered a job it is as a regular AP with no tenure period.
Now in my mind person X is superior in quality to person Y but the institutes will have their hands tied in offering X regular AP and person Y OCAP. Person Y can even go to court as he has the requisite number of years as mandated by MHRD. This means one is taking the flexibility away by giving importance to some “numbers”.
If OCAP is to be implemented it should come with the following
1. Flexibility of the selection committee to decide who deserves OCAP immaterial of the number of years of experience beyond PhD. After all you are looking at persons with good publication record and other assorted things.
2. One convenient way is to recruit everyone as OCAP (for three years) immaterial of post PhD experience but allow them to go up for tenure early based on performance. This regularly happens in US. A person can go up for tenure in 4-6 years. If a person is exceptional with great career then he can be offered Assoc. Prof. rank or Asst. Prof. rank with tenure meaning there is no three years of contractual period as in OCAP.
3. Increase the salary of OCAPs to any regular AP.
4. Provide OCAPS with the same level of funding, resources and teaching load as to a regular faculty.
5. If OCAP is here to stay, then make the period five years instead of three.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @7.41pm

Please remember that 3 years experience + x no. of publications etc.. .etc are only required norms for being called for interview.
It does not imply automatic selection.

TRP said...

a question to Prof. Madras: Why is it that depts in IISC still ask for applications by post. To give you an example http://sscu.iisc.ernet.in/Position.html
Isnt this an aboslute waste of time. Not that I am blaming you personally for it but just wondering.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Giri,
Could you please let me know: what time it may take for a new faculty to hire from the time when he/she applies. Specially, in the cases when there is no 'formal' advertisement with the last date of faculty application submission. As I read in your previous posts, a selection committee decides on the faculty application with taking into account the recommendation from the concerned department. Is this selection committee formed centrally for all the departments only when there is a formal faculty advertisement or it can be formed for one department only even when there is no formal faculty advertisement (but 'rolling' advertisement)? Thank you in advance for your feedback.

Giri@iisc said...

Dear TRP,

No, you do not need to apply by post. The website has not been updated.

Dear Anon,

It takes 3-6 months. First, you apply to the chairman of the department. The chairman gives it to the faculty search comm. Then, the application is shortlisted. After that, all the faculty in the department discuss the shortlisted applications. If this is positive, the application is again shortlisted and recommended for appointment. Then, a selection comm (specific to each department) is called and the selection is made.

IISc is unlikely to make appointments at the level of AP on contract. Irrespective of the number of postdoc experience, all applicants are likely to be directly taken at the level of AP, if found suitable.

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

Giri@iisc,

Can you write the total salary (after 6th pay commission report implementation) for Asst. Professor (old basic 12000)about to join in Y class city IIT(assume IITKgp, IIT Gandhinagar or IIT Ropar). What will be HRA for these cities. As you know faculty houses are not available in most of the new IIT's, how new faculty will be accommodated.

Anonymous said...

Hi woman faculty anon who is about to join iisc, could u throw some light on your research area and your credentials with which u got into iisc and those that u think are necessary? please share your opinion.

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is lack of meaningful evaluation in these promotions. Several of these promotions may be rigged due to "connections" which always work in India. Why dont they ask external evaluations i.e. peer review letters from experts abroad? Something similar on US promotion and tenure guidelines. That would be more fair (if not perfect). Afterall IITs send a copy of their PhD student's thesis for evaluation to an anonymous reviewer abroad. If PhD student can be evaluated that way why not their professors?

Anonymous said...

It is unfortunate that the discussion has to stooped to the level of personal accusations of commentators here, directors of IITs and their scientific credibility. It will not be long before the scientific achivements and promotions of the blog owner is also questioned.

Anonymous said...

Giri@iisc,

I want to know your view on the faculty selection and promotion procedure in IITs. You might be a part of some selection and promotion committee of some IITs. Why selection criteria is not transparent? How come HOD or professors can manipulate the things in presence of 2-3 invited experts. What is the role of experts? No one listen to the expert view ?
Do you have any plan or suggestion for transparent selection criteria? Are you implementing it in your department as you have written in some of your previous mails that you want to improve the system by remaining in the system!!

Anonymous said...

Look anonym, IITs have flexible structure. There is no restrictions on number of people to be promoted. Such rejections are done only to harass a particular guy. It feels very bad when you are rejected for no fault of yours. They call experts of their choice. Could you believe, they called a professor emiritus from IITM, who was Junior Engineer in State PWD for 15 years before joining IITM. He was promoted to Prof. post at the time of retirement. I gathered all these informations from IITM website. IITM guys must be knowing about him. This guy was behaving like an idiot and literally screaming on some candidates as directed by Professor who called him. Even director was embrassed for his idiotic behaviour.

I saw this IITM emiritus fellow, who came 2 days in advance, walking in institute corridors with host professor. This IITM fellow was behaving like a pet dog of professor. Now can you expect fair dealing from him? Most of the experts called in interview are like him only and called on the recommendation of HOD or some professor. Believe me, in all the interviews at IITs, no homework is done to varify candidate's publications and citations. The file is opened at the time of interview itself and they never talk about your credentials.

Anonymous said...

Anony@8:38 PM above

Do you know about the promotional system at IISc? I have heard good things about it. Are they transparent?

Anonymous said...

Regarding IISc promotion system. It is very simple and straighforward. Are you a PhD (or MS) from IISc? If yes then everything you will get in right time even in early (out of the term cases). If no, then keep on working....big brother is watching you.
Don't belive me? Just check the websites of faculty members. Statistics don't lie.
Unlike IITs we don't have to aply against advertisement and we have peer review system by foreign experts. But Big brothers will not allow you to apply for promotion if you don't satisfy their own defined criteria (which is offcourse different for their ex-students).

Giri@iisc said...

I have not served on the selection or promotion committees of IITs, so I can not comment. Regarding IISc, the normal period of promotion is 6 years from asst. to assoc. and 6 years from assoc. to prof. At the end of 5.5 years, the section will ask you to file your papers. You suggest 8 referees (4 Indian and 4 foreign) and the department will suggest 8 referees (4 Indian and 4 foreign) and this list is sent to the divisional chairman. He will pick up 8 names from this and send your details. Depending on the letters from these referees and the promotion and assessment committee (consisting of 8 members from outside, common for all branches), your case will be considered and you will be promoted. Currently, the "requirement" of filing papers is 10 publications in 6 years for engineering branches. The comments of the referees will be read out to you (without the names of the referees) after the result is announced.

Regarding the anon comment, "Are you a PhD (or MS) from IISc? If yes then everything you will get in right time even in early (out of the term cases). If no, then keep on working....big brother is watching you. Don't belive me? Just check the websites of faculty members. Statistics don't lie."

Well, you say statistics do not lie. There have been only four faculty members (including me) in engineering in the last 15 years who have been promoted early. NONE, I repeat NONE, have had any connection with IISc as a student. If you want I will give you the names of all the four faculty members and you can look up their profiles.

So, please do not spread false statements.

Thanks

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

IISc promotion style is great. Why can't IIT system follow this. Wake up IIT directors!!. IT is not 40% cap but Promoting dirt is really worrisome for future of IITs. All professors of IIT system should realize this fact.

Anonymous said...

In IIT-M, this style of promotion was discussed. All the senior faculty were opposed to it and shot it down.

Anonymous said...

This blog is about "AP on contract". It has slowly drifted to promotion to professorship. Now criticism at blog author for not singing in chorus!

Anonymous said...

If the system is corrupt, and all your attempts for justice has failed, you can still do something. You can overproduce and bring shame to the system by refusing to apply for promotion even if you have eligibility. This is better than complaining all the time.

Anonymous said...

there is no post of "AP on contract", in the advert. of IIT Ropar, in the Times of India today. the date is 19.10.2009 in the advert. so become AP directly in IIT Ropar. cheeerrss

Giri@iisc said...

Can we stop abusing each other in this forum? If you want some particular information from iitmsriram, please contact him directly. Do not use this blog as a forum for abusing someone and questioning their credentials.

Anonymous said...

It looks like IITD is the worst place on earth. Most of the times it is solid shit is elevated. Shame on these guys. We all should promise to ourselves that we will never go near by this shittiest place.

Giri@iisc said...

As far as I know, in the aero department of IIT-M, there was less than 2-3 candidates joining for Ph.D every year till around 5 years back. Divide it by the number of faculty and the chances of a young faculty getting a ph.d student is not very high. Therefore, the requirement that everyone should have graduated a ph.d student before being considering for associate professor is not valid for all branches. In IISc, it is a not a requirement.

Things have changed now and the number of Ph.Ds have increased but still the numbers in electrical sciences/computer sciences are low. Therefore, the promotion committees make use of other criteria rather than *just* Ph.D graduation.

Anonymous said...

Giri,

You say

"There have been only four faculty members (including me) in engineering in the last 15 years who have been promoted early. NONE, I repeat NONE, have had any connection with IISc as a student. If you want I will give you the names of all the four faculty members and you can look up their profiles."

You mean last 5 (not 15) years. In the last ten, there are seven faculty members in engineering who have been promoted out-of-turn. And none of them had a masters or Ph.D from IISc.

Now that you have revealed this fact, some will now say,

"Regarding IISc promotion system. It is very simple and straighforward. Are you a PhD (or MS) from IISc? If no, then everything you will get in right time even in early (out of the term cases). If yes, then keep on working....big brother is watching you."

You will be damned, if you will; You will be damned, if you don't.

Just do not respond to these stupid commentators.

Anonymous said...

Adding some more shit to the shittiest place.

If you are in Comp. Sc. department of IITD then it is relatively easy for you to get promotion. For example, Sanjeeva Prasad became a full professor 3 years ago even though he has guided only half a student.

Anonymous said...

Prof. Giri:

Please start a new blog post titled
"IIT-Delhi the worst place to work"

and move all the comments from here to there. Did not know that they were so many frustrated IIT-Delhi professors.

Anonymous said...

For all those frustated IIT-D faculty, it is better for the other readers of this blog, if you can start a blog of your own to vent your anger and refrain from cribbing and personal attacks on other IIT faculty about whom you have minimal information. I hope you are atleast aware that there is an M.S. program in IISc and IITM. It has gotten to the point where it is not just irritating but disgusting to see these comments.


Concerned IIX faculty (not from IIT-D)

Anonymous said...

"I hope you are atleast aware that there is an M.S. program in IISc and IITM."

what do u mean?

iitmsriram said...

I have been silent only because I have been on vacation (deepavali weekend, no?). I met with a minor accident and I temporarily lost vision in one eye - it is back upto about 60% now, but it is still not comfortable to browse. It is very unfortunate that this thread is turning out into a random non-constructive abusive mode. I usually avoid responding to these taunts since it serves no meaningful purpose; it is like in the saying "if you go mud wrestling with a pig, you will both get very dirty, but one of the two enjoys just that". Just for the record, beyond what shows in my web pages (which have received only sporadic updates since 2002 or so), I have about 1 crore of continuing education programs and about 3 crores of projects. I am also presently IITM co-ordinator for the MHRD virtual laboratories project; the IITM proposal is for 20+ crores and about 2 crores have been sanctioned as of now. I have also graduated 5.5 MS (one had a co-guide). I believe all this will convince a reasonable selection committee of being a substitute for graduating a PhD. I will not be responding to any more taunts in this direction.

Giri@iisc said...

anon at 8:15 pm,

What was probably meant is that graduating 2 M.S students is considered equivalent to 1 Ph.D in IIT-M. At least that was the case when I studied there.

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

I have been following this blog as a candidate for IIT faculty and have benefited from the advices given by several people and primarily by the blog owner, Prof. Madras.

Having seen the recent conversations, it is clear to me that I should NOT apply to IIT-Delhi. If there is so much politics, it is in Delhi. Did not know IIT-Delhi was also similar to politicians living there

iitmsriram said...

Dear anon@11:14pm IIT faculty candidate,

It would be unfortunate if you eliminate IITD from your list just because of the comments here; IITD, like all other IIX, has its share of disgruntled elements. Some of those are very vocal (should I say, fingery?) and visible here. That does not and should not make IITD any less than its counterparts. You visit another blog, you may feel IITG is the pits; you visit yet another and you may be tempted to conclude that IITM must be the worst. None of those perceptions based on the voices of disgruntled elements presents reality. How can you base any conclusions on postings by those who insist on being anonymous? If you are interested in IITD and knowing some actual details, send me private email and I will give you contacts in IITD who can answer specific questions accurately.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Sriram,

I wanted to post this because I was feeling really bad about the anonymous posts here that were overly critical of you. I have seen your posts here and I have seen how helpful you have been to people who have asked questions. I have personally benefited from reading your replies many times. I request you to ignore personal attacks because I am sure that many people have nothing better to do with their free time. Thanks again for all your help.

Bharat
(A possible future IIT faculty member)

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Sriram,

I hope you are quickly recovering from your injury.

Prof. Giridhar and you are doing a very nice service to future IIX aspirants. Your service is exemplary. Please dont get disturbed by some elements.

In one of his comments on this string, Prof. Giridhar explained promotion "procedure" and some "expectations" at IISc.

Since you are HOD and a senior professor at IITM, you must have had several experiences of witnessing promotion cases in IIT system. Can you please elucidate the promotion "procedure" and "expectations" at IITM and IITs in general? This will help a person like me who wants to be a future IIX faculty.

Best Regards

TA

Anonymous said...

Look at following sentence in bold letters in IIT Ropar advertisement:

"Faculty taken on Contract will be for a period up to 3 years on a regular pay scale renewable on a year to year basis."

(http://www.iitd.ac.in/iitrpr/faculty/index.htm)

Year to year review of OCAPs is very much on cards. This is what GOI wants? No tom, dick an harry can change it. And these guys are very happy as they will now have full control on lives of newcomers.

iitmsriram said...

Thanks, Bharat and TA for your encouragement. I have a thick skin, so I am not unduly bothered by frustrated souls taking anonymous potshots.

Ok, here is how 'promotions' happen at IITM (generally similar in other IITs also). IISc has a different procedure as outlined by our host in an earlier post here; incidentally, it was not senior faculty who turned down the IISc procedure when it was considered at IITM a few years ago - it was the junior faculty to whom it would be applicable who had lots of apprehensions and the plan was shelved. Many of the same junior faculty who are more comfortable with the system now are supportive of it and it is likely to come up again at IITM. IITM does not have 'promotion' but actually recruitment to higher posts. So, every 2-3 years or so, an advertisement is put out calling for applications for asso and/or full profs (and also asst profs). Every department has its own norms for shortlisting and the institute also has some overall norms - in the form of x publications, y MS / PhD graduates, z volume of sponsored projects and some norms for teaching activity (new courses introduced, new labs, new teaching methods, tools, aids etc and also feedback from students on effectiveness of teaching). The applications received in response to the advertisement (will include local 'promotion' candidates and also external applicants) are scrutinized by a department level committee for shortlisting. The report of this committee is sent to central administration which then arranges for interviews by a selection committee. The selection committee consists of the Director, subject experts nominated by the department (through senate) and the board of governors and also one of the members of the board of governors (often one of the faculty representative on the board). In the case of professors, there is also an expert nominated by the Visitor (the President of India) whereas for assistant and associate professors, the Head of the Department takes this slot. Candidates called for interview usually make a presentation in the department; the feedback from the department from this presentation, the report of the departmental shortlisting committee and the application package are all presented to the selection committee which then interviews the candidates. Now-a-days, candidates who are not able to be physically present are interviewed over the phone by the selection committee. It is entirely upto this selection committee to decide on appointment and initial salary. Obviously, the subject experts in the selection committee play a crucial role.

And before I close this, I will also respond to a specific comment by one of our dear anons - "Let me repeat, if you think that u will have a better career in IITs solely on the basis of your research caliber, then never come here". I agree entirely. IITs are not pure research institutions; a large majority of the graduates are BTech or MTech, both course based programs, so teaching is an essential activity. Upward of 40% of ones time is expected to be spent on teaching courses. If you want to do only (or mostly) research and find teaching courses a distraction to be avoided, dont come to IIT. You will be a misfit and end up frustrated. IISc may be better suited, but there too, there may be expectations of doing some sponsored research and perhaps some organizational and service activities (perhaps our host can fill in on this).

iitmsriram said...

dear klpana@indiatimes,

I guess we can add one more the count of frustrated souls. It would also appear that you have difficulty comprehending english. I have chosen my words carefully, but seem intent on reading beyond what I have written. I dont need your pity - I am very very happy doing what I am doing at IITM. And, that includes a lot of teaching - and there is enough information on record to establish me as a good teacher, I dont need your opinions on that. At least, I have shown I am good at something, which is probably a lot more than we can say for you.

RP said...

"If you want to do only (or mostly) research and find teaching courses a distraction to be avoided, dont come to IIT."

I don't see any fault in what Prof. Sriram said. It is very easy to misunderstand.

Anonymous said...

Mud throwing at prominent researchers/academicans in India is not appropriate.
Successful guidance of a PhD student is not a requirement anywhere not even in the USA. Its a combination of publications+MS+PhD+external funding+service+teaching that ascertains eligibility for promotion to Assoc. Professor level and beyond. I have seen instances of persons getting promoted without phD guidance. Especially as Prof. Madras pointed out if the number of imcoming PhD students in IIT-M is only 2-3 (5 years ago) then phd guidance it cannot be a criteria for promotion.
Bottomline before abusing researchers in India the anons in this thread should think over the fact that these professors probably left pretty lucarative career opportunities abroad, embraced the work environment of our country and yet succeeded in attaining an international reputation. Trust me it is not easy with limited resources, high teaching loads and other infrastructure problems. Things are much better now but yet what improvements you are seeing are partly because of the efforts of these professors you are cursing.
Every institute has problems including Ivy League schools. IIXs are no exception. There will be always a few promotions that will be controversial. It happens everywhere.
Before ending I would like to ask one thing about the role of the selection committee. If a candidate is recommended by the department level panel, then what do the selection comm. look at. Do they ask (particularly in absentia candidates) for another presentation or is it just typical high level conversation like broad future plans, current plans etc. My objective here is to ask if the department likes candidate then is the selection comm. a mere formality. This is also because department faculty are more suited to judge a candidate (being in the same area). In US it is usually the Dept. who decides and the Dean and provost (selection comm. equivalent) just goes with the dept. 95 % of the cases even though they do chat with the candidate on braod level topics.

Thanks
SB
Prof. in US

iitmsriram said...

Dear SB,

The selection committee plays a significantly larger role; the departmental recommendation is one input. The administration also has a separate and major input through the director and a dean or the member of the board of governors. The selection committee has to put all this together and make a decision; the decision is made on the spot. Departmental recommendations do get overruled, perhaps 25% of the time; this is usually because departments have local compulsions which central administrations do not have to respond to. The interview usually has broad questions, but sometimes, people ask technical questions (there are subject experts on the panel, who may be working in a similar research area).

Anonymous said...

Dear iitmsriram,

Thanks for your information on the interview procedure in IITM. But why this selection procedure is not available on the institute site, if IIT's want that their selection and promotion criteria should be transparent, bring each and every rule in open domain!!!
Can you give some idea about what is the minimum criteria in which someone get an interview call for each post (Astt. Professor, Associate Professor and Professor). How many journal and conference papers, marks, institute (Foreigner, Indian) [in B.Tech, M.Tech and PhD], M.S and PhD supervised, sponsored projects. Please do not take it personal, I am a new faculty in one of the IIT and want to know these hidden rules.

Thanks,

RA

iitmsriram said...

Dear RA,

You will have to ask your department since the norms vary from department to department and over time. To give a specific example, CS departments may not insist on journal publications but take papers in some key conferences as equivalent; my own department does not insist on PhD production but takes 5 journal papers (or 2 MS) as equivalent - we have got good candidates from national and defence labs who would have got cut out otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Some commentators have been rude in their use of language on this forum about Prof. Sriram. It is not good.

Nevertheless, it does not overrule the fact that Prof. Sriram is not a good example for IIT system "in terms of research". Though he may be an excellent teacher and administrator.

This forum needs to debate a larger question. What is the mandate for IITs? Teaching or Research? A true research institution needs to do both. And if senior professors/HOD consider it just teaching without much focus on research then why they need 3 year research experience for fresh PhD. It seems IITs are at cross-road and they dont know where to go.

There needs to be lot of soul searching done by IIT from top to bottom.

Anonymous said...

Moreover, look at Dr. Bhalla's profile. He has guided 1/2 Ph.D., 16 M.Tech. projects, R&D projects of worth Rs. 10 Crores, 21 international journal papers and 261 citations. Still he is running from pillar to post and has filed several RTIs so that he may atleast be called for Asso. prof. interview next time.

RP said...

It makes me wonder why people worry so much about promotion. These are some questions one is likely to encounter when thinking about promotion.

Is my research output going to be affected by not being promoted? Will citations of my papers depend on whether I am asst/assoc/prof? Do I want to get promoted because I will get more money? Or I want more respect from people around me? or because my fellow faculty who has same or lesser amount of experience than myself got promoted?

Anonymous said...

" I am worried and angry that there are only a couple of institutions like IISc, JNCASR, TIFR etc for engineering in my country."

TIFR is more for science. IISc is also useless. There was a dean of IISc from physics, who never graduated a Ph.D but used to advise young faculty to graduate Ph.D within 4 years. He was a professor and then dean.

There are several professors in IISc, who have graduated a maximum of 1 Ph.D student, got promoted and now enjoy a cosy life doing nothing, not even teaching.

Currently, this blog host can not be criticized because he is active in research.

iitmsriram said...

Anon 4:04 am says "iitmsriram's comment that IITs are more of a teaching institutions ... "; I have made no such comment. Read over my post and check for yourself. I have merely made an observation on today's reality in IITs. All IITs have large BTech and MTech enrollments and at the present levels of staffing, something like 40% of faculty time will have to be spent on teaching, whether one likes it or not. Prospective faculty candidates need to be aware of this, no? This may change as we hire more faculty members or modify modes of instruction, but this is the reality today. Incidentally, IITs don't require 3 years research experience for entry level faculty, it is 3 years of teaching / research / industry experience.

And to all those frustrated anons, keep writing if it makes you feel better, it does not bother me one bit.

And, I must admit that I have become curious about Dr. Bhalla who writes here anonymously. Where might one find his profile? Or the profile of Supratic? The IITD site is of no help, unless one wants to listen to some music ;-)

Anonymous said...

"Currently, this blog host can not be criticized because he is active in research."

Why can't we do that? I will make a start. Prof. Giridhar publishes only 20 papers with 500 citations every year. If not for the time spent in the blog, his productivity would be higher. IISc should not allow him to write blogs and instead ask him to write more papers and get more patents.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sriram

now u r coming to the right track.. here is the webpage:

http://web.iitd.ac.in/~sbhalla/

iitmsriram said...

Dear anon (bhalla?) - you obviously did not catch my ;-) - I have been there and the site does not open in IE8 or Firefox or Safari or Chrome - some of them play the music but the links don't work on any of them. Perhaps, it should say "this site works only with IE7" (which I don't use).

Anonymous said...

Dear Sriram

It seems u dont have the basic requirement to see the page... and unfortunately, there is no alternate equivalance to see it.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Bhalla (whom I remember to have met/seen a few times in conferences at IISc and elsewhere during the time he was doing his PhD in Singapore) may perhaps be a victim of dept. level politics/prejudice. But that does not give him or his supporters license to abuse other researchers and faculty, much less about whom they have only minimal information. It would be better for all the readers, if they take up the issue in the right quarters, in the right away and desist from slander in this blog.

Anonymous said...

Probably Dr. Bhalla should also mention that out of the 21 papers he has published, 12 papers are from his doctoral work. He has published 9 papers in 2008 and 2009 from IIT. The claim of high number of citations is also spurious because all the papers that have received more than 5 citations are from his doctoral work and not from work done in IIT-D.

If he is in the institute that I am (IIT-KGP), he would not have been called for interview in March 2008 because he would have no papers based on his work in IIT.

Anonymous said...

I know all others are visiting that page.. but Sriram is not even having the basic requirement to...

Anonymous said...

what is the unofficial research rankings (atleast as per the perception of the profs) of the different IITs in Aero, mechanical and chemical.

Anonymous said...

I guess, this thread reads "AP on contract". Do we have anyone to comment on this topic?
Unfortunately, it is becoming more like a war zone between Sriram and Bhalla brigades. If Prof. Madras approves it, why does not he start another thread for the abusers only?

For a change, do we have anyone talkning about 'AP on contract'?

iitmsriram said...

OK, this post too is not about AP on contract ...

Dr. Bhalla,

I don't have a machine with IE7 on it - I upgraded to IE8 some months ago. I am only curious and not desperate to see whats in your profile - so my curiosity will have to be put on hold for some days.

Anonymous said...

Now shifting to science streams, look at the following webpage:

http://web.iitd.ac.in/~amruta/

Same situation with her. She is lady Bhalla of IITD as far as promotions are concerned.

Anonymous said...

Look at her teaching pattern. 8 entirely different subjects, all unrelated to her field of specialisation in last 5 years, that too to the classes of 200-250 students.

16 years of post-Ph.D. experience. Her papers (around 40 in international journals) are cited even by Nobel prize winners.

...still waiting for Asso. professor interview letter.

Anonymous said...

I visited her homepage. I find her research areas very interesting. One of them is:

"Hadrons in the hot and dense medium"

Anonymous said...

If it is a cse that some one is not getting promoted in an IIT even if he/she desrves it, he/she may always try to find a suitable promoted position in other IITs. This is what many faculties have done. I understand that it is not easy to move from one place to another, but if you are living with such restrictions, you have to accept the system even if it is bad. In one way, Bhallas/Mishras are helping the system which they are blaming by not moving out from their respective institutions.

Anonymous said...

Could someone please throw some light on what happened to OCAP in IITs....Surprisingly the IIT faculties who were fighting for higher salaries and removal of some other clauses from sixth pay commission's recommendations seem to go silent suddenly. May be Prof Giridhar can give us some information about what was the outcome of IIT council meeting on 19th October in this regard. Thanks....

Anonymous said...

guys guys everybody calm down a bit.. In my view for anybody who conducts research is due to his/her own curiosity and eagerness to solve a new problem or to provide a solution in a better way (which is wat many engineers do!!!). If that helps in other things like promotions etc then so be it. But if you fall in to the vicious circle of doing research for promotions and applause then you are doing no good to your tag of researcher. I can understand that it will definitely hurt when somebody of lesser qualification gets ahead of you but let your work speak for yourself. But if money is the motive then people like Bhalla should not have pursued Phd in the first place. You would have been earning a lot more if u had taken a job after ur under graduation or PG. We all know wat our research standards are stop giving unnecessary publicity!!!(sarcastic)

Anonymous said...

Further, switching over from one IIT to another is not an easy process. If you think that these people didnt try their luck in other IITs, then you are wrong. They tried even in new IITs. But the entire IIT system is like mafia. If they pick somebody to harass for any reason, they crush he/r completely.

Anonymous said...

Hello I haven't blamed anyone craving for publicity. I am just explaining the implications of venting your anger in a public forum. I can understand the irregularities in the IIT system and wat people go through. There is no point in discussing about this here. Its only damaging your credibility. All I can advise you is to get more projects and try to get a ground breaking publication and if you think that you are no longer able to do your work I advise you look for other options.

Anonymous said...

I dont care about my credibility. I have decided to raise my voice against opression on each and every forum. I have filed several RTIs and have sent MHRD the entire bunch of documents showing many instances of injustice. I will keep on fighting, no matter how many people are supporting my cause. If everyone thinks that I am here only to do research/teaching and not to raise my voice against injustice, it will keep on repeating to other people. If me or guys like me keep on leaving, the system will be overwhelmed by guys like srirams. If you analyse deeply, you will find that most of them at top are like Sriram. I want to see all the bright people at top in future.

iitmsriram said...

Enough is enough. This has absolutely nothing to do with AP on contract, but I have to defend myself. If people want to say I got projects by buttering up or whatever, I have a thick skin and I will ignore it (by definition, administrators have to have thick skin). I know my track record better than anyone else and I need not justify it to sundry frustrated souls who don't even have the guts to identify themselves. But if you want to make insinuations that I am ruining others' lives, you better have something to back it up with. Here is an open challenge - find anyone, I mean ANYONE from IITM - faculty, staff, alumnus or student - who can substantiate that I have treated them unfairly and ruined their life - I will resign the next day. On the contrary, if you are unable to provide any such evidence, are YOU prepared to resign? OK, if not resign, would you have the courtesy to at least retract your insinuations ("the system will be overwhelmed by guys like srirams")? I am not holding my breath waiting for such a retraction - I seriously doubt one can expect even this much honesty out of those who don't have the guts to sign a single one of their postings. After all, there is the clear admission "I dont care about my credibility"; that's good for you, should probably tell us something about taking anything you say seriously. I care about my credibility and it is one of my most valued assets. So, put up or shut up.

ps: I wonder if our host is away - I think the comments are going well beyond his 'acceptable' deletion boundary.

Karthik said...

Dr Giri,

Please dont stop writing. Your posts have been of great help for young and upcoming researchers. Please dont care about these people hurling personal abuses. Most commentators have crossed their limits and they know that better than anybody else. It would be very sad to see if you are unavailable for contact through this blog.

Giri@iisc said...

Thanks for your comment. I have been having only intermittent access to internet and will continue to have less access till Nov 2. Thus, I am unable to even read or delete all comments. I have now deleted a few comments that are abusive towards particular individuals.

Regarding the anon comment,
"Prof. Giridhar publishes only 20 papers with 500 citations every year. If not for the time spent in the blog, his productivity would be higher. IISc should not allow him to write blogs and instead ask him to write more papers and get more patents."

IISc need not tell me to do this. The way some commentators have abused each other and me, I will stop writing voluntarily.

To the faculty who are frustrated or want to bring justice to the system:

I started this blog to provide information on recruitment, pay scales and promotion procedures in IISc/IITs, scientometrics etc. and not as a forum to publicly air grievances.

I understand your frustration and your advice that one should not join IITs. I suggest you start a separate blog on this and readers can post various grievances in that.

Please note this is NOT a public forum. It is a personal blog. Please, I beg of you to take your personal fights and insults elsewhere. If the only way that you will do this is if you want me to stop writing, I will.

Thanks

Giridhar

s said...

AIIITF has finally accepted the revised pay:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IIT-faculty-decides-to-accept-new-pay-structure/articleshow/5157374.cms

s said...

Sriram

By "I dont care about my credibility", I meant "I dont care about being tagged as frustated". I reiterate that i wanna see people like Bhallas/Mishras on top rther than guys like you. But sixth pay commission has dashed all hopes. These guys (who have already crossed 40) will take atleast 15 years to be senior professor so that may be appointed on important posts.

s.b. said...

Please visit my blog and drop your messages. Believe me, when you vent your anger at public forum in a constructive way, it makes a difference.

s.b. said...

http://unfairpromotionsatiits.blogspot.com/

T said...

Dear Prof. Giridhar,

Regarding faculty position advertisement in IIX, I have seen several versions from different IIXs in terms of citizenship issue.

Mainly there are e category:

1. Indian citizen: of course this is a regular position

2. Foreign national: there is often a contract position of 5 years.

3. Indian Nationals with PIO card (they may be citizen of other country now): Are these people eligible for regular position in IIXs? This is not clear.

Also, what is the difference in terms of regular position and 5-year contract.

iitmsriram said...

Dear T,

Our host is travelling, so I will respond. OCI card holders are eligible for regular faculty positions in IIX. Though the law still says that OCI card holders are not eligible for government jobs, an exception has been made for faculty positions in IIX. The dean / deputy director in charge of faculty at your IIX of interest should be able to provide a copy of this letter of exception. Foreign nationals on contract positions are not offered a regular pay scale, they are offered consolidated pay, like visiting faculty (this may be different at IIXs) - so things like retirement benefits etc disappear. Not a very attractive proposition.

iitmsriram said...

Dear S,

You state "I reiterate that i wanna see people like Bhallas/Mishras on top rther than guys like you." What do you know about me to make this statement? Thankfully, IITM does not go by your wanna, but has a procedure which one might find meaningful; the director seeks nominations from all faculty members in the department that needs a new head. In my department, ALL (except one*) nominated me. I believe that trumps your wanna and should perhaps tell you something.

* I am not so vain as to nominate myself!

vipul said...

Dear Prof Sriram,

Can you highlight what the retirement benefits in IITs are (something you don't get in the private sector, right?). I heard that they are being substantially changed/discontinued now. It is true?

iitmsriram said...

Vipul,

There is little difference in retirement benefits between government and private sector now. Nothing is about to change or being substantially changed NOW, it has already happened in 2004. If you join not just IIX, but any government service on or after 1.1.2004, you don't have a pension scheme, you have only the new pension scheme; the name is a misnomer, since there is no pension at all in the new pension scheme. It is just a standard contributory scheme - you contribute some x% of your salary, the employer contributes some y%, you have some individual control over how x+y is invested and at retirement, you can choose to take lump sum and/or periodic payouts. Google for "new faculty survival guide" - it is outdated, but answers many related questions. Once this pay commission thing settles down, there will probably be a new improved version of the guide.

K.V said...

Dear IITMSRIRAM

Thanks for addressing the issue of OCI and PIO card holders seeking employment at IIXs. I find the information in your post very useful. A quick question: is there any permission needed from MHRD for OCI/PIO card holders?

Also the IIT survivial guide is a wonderful resource. I do hope it can be updated.

iitmsriram said...

Dear KV

I will double check, but I dont believe any MHRD permission is required before hiring OCI / PIO card holders to regular faculty positions - there is a letter on file which should cover everyone. Yes, I do intend to update the survival guide since it is quite outdated, subject to my being able to find the 'free time' to do it.

K.V said...

Dear IITMSriram

I would really appreciate it if you could check on the MHRD permission. I have a persoanl interest in this issue. I am planning to move to one of the IITXs nad have to make a decision on whether ot take up USC soon. I am planning to join one of the IITXs in summer 2010.

Regarding the IIT survival guid, I belive it should be required reading for all freshmen IITX assistant professors. I suggest getting a copyright for the document :)

best

Anonymous said...

Prof. Giridhar,
Have you stopped blogging?