Tuesday, October 27, 2009

Promotions in IITs and IISc

There have been some inquires on the procedure for promotion of faculty in IIT/IISc.

In IISc, the normal period of promotion is 6 years from assistant professor to associate professor and 6 years from associate professor to full professor. At the end of 5.5 years, the section will ask you to file your papers. The format of the details to be filed are given here. You suggest 8 referees (4 Indian and 4 foreign) and the department will suggest 8 referees (4 Indian and 4 foreign) and this list is sent to the divisional chairman. [In IISc, we have six divisions and departments belong to a particular division. Each division has a divisional chairman.] He will pick up 8 names from this and send your details to these referees. Once the comments are received, these will be discussed by a promotion and assessment committee. This committee consists of all six divisional chairmen, the associate director, director and 8-12 very eminent scientists from India, who do not belong to IISc. The case will be considered by this committee and you will be promoted. Cases are also considered for early promotion (and termed as "out-of-turn"). These are not frequent and, as far as I know, only ten faculty have been promoted out of turn in the last ten years.

IITMSriram, a frequent commentator on the posts here, has written about the promotions in IITs as follows. This is different from how 'promotions' happen at IITM (generally similar in other IITs also). IITM does not have 'promotion' but actually recruitment to higher posts. So, every 2-3 years or so, an advertisement is put out calling for applications for asso and/or full profs (and also asst profs). Every department has its own norms for shortlisting and the institute also has some overall norms - in the form of x publications, y MS / PhD graduates, z volume of sponsored projects and some norms for teaching activity (new courses introduced, new labs, new teaching methods, tools, aids etc and also feedback from students on effectiveness of teaching). The applications received in response to the advertisement (will include local 'promotion' candidates and also external applicants) are scrutinized by a department level committee for shortlisting. The report of this committee is sent to central administration which then arranges for interviews by a selection committee. The selection committee consists of the Director, subject experts nominated by the department (through senate) and the board of governors and also one of the members of the board of governors (often one of the faculty representative on the board). In the case of professors, there is also an expert nominated by the Visitor (the President of India) whereas for assistant and associate professors, the Head of the Department takes this slot. Candidates called for interview usually make a presentation in the department; the feedback from the department from this presentation, the report of the departmental shortlisting committee and the application package are all presented to the selection committee which then interviews the candidates. Now-a-days, candidates who are not able to be physically present are interviewed over the phone by the selection committee. It is entirely upto this selection committee to decide on appointment and initial salary. Obviously, the subject experts in the selection committee play a crucial role.

It is important to realize that promotions yield hardly any monetary benefits. Continuous increment of 3% of Basic+AGP will ensure that one will reach the end of the scale of 67,000 at the end of 23 years, if never promoted (see orange columns). If promoted to professor under the IISc scheme of 6 years as assistant professor followed by six years as associate professor (see green columns), one will reach the end of the scale at the end of 21 years. The only difference will be in the grade pay.






Please do NOT post individual grievances in response to this post. This post is only meant to provide the norms and guidelines that exist in these places. Exceptions of either kind (early/late promotions) exist in all places. IIT-M recently promoted a faculty in chemical engineering directly from assistant professor to full professor. Similarly, IISc has offered associate professorship to a faculty who had only three years after his Ph.D etc.

120 comments:

Anonymous said...

Giri@iisc,

Can you write the total salary (after 6th pay commission report implementation) for Asst. Professor (old basic 12000)about to join in Y class city IIT(assume IITKgp, IIT Gandhinagar or IIT Ropar). What will be HRA,TA and DA for these cities ? Faculty houses are not available in most of the new IIT's, how the faculty will be accommodated.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Giridhar,

I heard that IISC and some IITs have problems in accomodating all faculties. For places as expensive as bangalore is that a significant issue.
In one of my earlier question Prof. Sriram told that Selection committees plays a significant role and historically have rejected 25 % of the candidates recommended at the department level. Is this the trend in IISC too. Some of my friends who joined IIXs earlier told that in their cases selection comm. interviews were just mere formalities. But apparently it is not which as Prof. Sriram rightly pointed out is to filter out any candidate recommended due to local pressure.
BTW your blog and comments by other faculties have been really helpful to many.

Prof. S.B
US University

Anonymous said...

In IISc, What type of weight is given to Research, Teaching and Service during promotional review?
Is it 33% each, or is it heavily weighted towards research? In that case, is there a minimum number of publications in journals/conferences that is required for promotion? I have heard the magic number of 10 journal papers mentioned before. Is that true across all departments? If yes, it seems a little unfair to applied fields where even setting up an experimental lab takes time. Prof. Madras, your comments will be much appreciated in this regard.

Bharat

Giri@iisc said...

Anon: please use the calculator given at http://gate.iitm.ac.in/6pc/
and choose the class of city you need. The DA is independent of city and is currently 27%. HRA is 15% in some places, it is 30% in A-1 cities like bangalore and madras. Transport allowance is 3200+DA thereon in A-1/A cities and 1600+DA in other cities. Search in google and find out which class your city belongs in.

In some new IITs, faculty housing is leased and given to new faculty.

SB: In IISc, selection committees are only at the level of selection and for promotion. The selection comm, consists of director etc in additional to external experts. It is probably not as high as 25% in IISc but varies from department to department. But it is not merely a formality either.

IISc provides two bedroom accommodation to all new faculty. Though according to rules only associate professors and above are eligible for three bedroom apartments, we have started providing them to assistant professors who are fairly senior (3 years or more). They are not on campus but around 2-3 Km away. But we provide 2 bedroom houses to all faculty on campus. Quality is not great...


Bharat: It is ten papers in engineering and 15-20 in sciences. But it is in six years and this expectation is not high. It probably takes two years to set up a lab. However, no number is written down because it depends more on quality than quantity. 10 papers in standard journals, but 2 in science/nature may suffice. 10 papers is useless open access journals will count for nothing.

I am surprised you ask whether it 33% weightage each. Of course not. In any R-1 in the USA, it is 70:20:10. Here, we do not have any weightage. Teaching is probably 1-2 courses per year; service in 1-2 committees and research as above.
Many classes are small (<30 students) and most faculty teach 1-2 courses and many serve in 1-2 committees. So, the differential factor will be only research. It is often rare to find outstanding teachers and outstanding administrators who are poor researchers.
Some people like me serve in 20 committees but we also publish ! Without the latter, the former may be useless :-)

Anonymous said...

Prof. Madras,

As always, thank you very much for your insightful comments. I have one more question on journal papers and promotions.

If someone is in a US university or research lab and has papers in the pipeline, that actually get published after they join an IIX, are they considered in the review? Or, do the papers have to be on research CONDUCTED in IIX? Your comments specific to IISc are very welcome.

regards
Bharat

Giri@iisc said...

If the work is done during the doctorate/postdoc but published after joining IISc, they would be counted but will not have the same weightage as papers published with your students. The committee looks at independent research and not to satisfy some numbers.

as said...

I am curious about the difference in number of papers roughly recommended by engg depts and science depts. Any particular cause?

Anonymous said...

Prof. Giridhar's statement about the requirement of 10 papers in six years is very reasonable. In any standard US research university, for tenure and promotion one needs 10-12 papers in standard journals. For experimentalists this can be a little less. However in US system external research funding is the killer. If the startup for a new faculty is $ 200 K then the external funding required at time of tenure is of the order of 1 million. One cannot expect to get tenure in US based on publications alone and no funding. In US getting funding for research is very hard with a success rate of around 10 % (NSF, DOE, Army etc).
Judged in this light IISC requirement of 10 papers is not only reasonable but also less demanding. Infact I was expecting a figure of around 15 papers in Engineering given that funding procurement in India is less onerous.

Prof. S.B

Anonymous said...

I agree with Prof. SB. Funding is a killer in US. Summer salary (3 months of faculty), PhD student salary etc is paid from grant (mandatory). I believe in India this is usually not an issue as all faculty are paid salary for 12 months. Also, most of the graduate students are paid by IIX and there is no mandatory need to support students from research grant.

And above all success rate in funding is almost 80% for IIX faculty (told by some colleagues in IIX) whereas it is 10% for Federal agencies in USA.

TA
Another Prof. in US

Anonymous said...

Thanks again Prof. Madras. Also, Thanks to Profs. SB and TA for your comments. I agree that funding/running a research group is easier in India than in the US.

However, for someone who did not go to graduate school in India, the contact network of funding agencies needs to be built from scratch. Prof. Madras, I noticed that you got your PhD from Texas A&M. Did you have any trouble finding the right people/organizations for funding when you started as a faculty member? Any suggestions to newbies like me on how to handle this problem efficiently?

Bharat

Anonymous said...

Prof S.B. and TA,

Please do not compare between US universities and IITs. If you want to compare, compare the whole system and then compare number of publications. Compare working condition in India and in US. Compare basic infrastructure, experimentation facilities and basic computational setup. Most of the equipment and materials for experimental study has to import and to import even small item wait time is at least 3-4 months. Do you know there most of the IIT's are not getting 24x7 electric supply, sluggish internet speed, no AC and cold water in summer. Faculty have to sit in fan only even at 115F temperature. Do you have the idea that some of the new IITs are getting electric supply only for 10-14 hours, no clean water for drinking (leave for other thing), do not think for fast internet connection, no faculty accommodation in the campus. They are running in rented premises. Now above all after some years when there will faculty promotion for these new IITs faculties, then you people will see only journal publications, no one will consider the faculty contribution in developing the new IIT from the scratch. Compare the salary between US university professors and IIT professors (You can find it in some other blog of Prof. Giridhar). If it is so easy then why you are not leaving your comfort zone in US and join any IIT.

RA

Anonymous said...

Dear Bharat,

Some of my students are Asst. Professors at IIX and based on their feedback, I learnt that getting funding of 30-40 lakhs (INR) is not difficult. But for large piece of equipment (couple of crores), funding is not easy.
Though one has to keep on doing hard work and not relax because success rate is high. However all of my information is second hand.

Prof. Giri is very successful and being in India can give you more nformed suggestions.

Good Luck with your faculty career in IIX.

TA

Anonymous said...

Dear RA,

Your comment has some valid points but relatively poor infrastructure can not be an excuse for lack of effort for several people in IIX system (I am not saying you because I dont know your CV). There are professors (young and old) in IIX system who has not published a single paper in 3-4 years. Is research infrastructure so poor in IIX? I dont think so.
I have visited several of these IIX in last 3-4 years and they have decent infrastructure (sometimes better than US universities) and without worry for funding.

I am not sure which IIX you are talking about but situation of power cut and no water was in 80s (when I was a student at one of the IITs). If you are talking of one of the new IITs then of course this will be problem for years till they have own campus. And I agree that you guys should be given some credit for building a new IIT.

I am a very firm believer that "hard work never goes waste". If there is a true effort then outcome will be successful, though degree of success may vary. 8-10 papers in 6 years is not much (there could be some difference in number because of the research area) in present era when entire process of submission and review is online. It saves ton of time.


I request you to have constructive discussion and refrain making personalized comments about "cozy comforts of US and all". You dont know anything about me. Isnt it?


I am a very firm believer that "hard work never goes waste". If there is a true effort then outcome will be successful, though degree of success may vary.

All the Best for your research.

TA

Giri@iisc said...

This is what I wrote in response to another comment in another post,

"How do you think the work environment, funding, facilities, student quality etc compare in IISc versus a state university in the US."

Much of this has been answered in several of my previous posts and associated comments. Anyway, I will briefly summarize

IISc provides a start up grant of Rs. 20 lakhs or so and one can write proposals to government organizations and get much more money. If you are happy with around 50 lakh or so for your initial equipment and start your experiments, you should be fine. Funding agencies have an initial limit of 35 lakhs. But you can write three proposals to different funding agencies and get 35 lakhs each. If you need an equipment without which you can not work at all and this equipment costs Rs 2 crores, it is still workable but you have to convince a few people and will take longer (a year to review and start). If the department is willing to help, they can get more money and give it to you but the facility will be central (i.e., it will be shared).

Regarding facilities, computing facilities in IISc are excellent and setting up a large cluster for 50 lakhs is not a problem. Setting up good experimental facilities will take time but it can be done. There are also general facilities like TEM, NMR etc which are accessible to every faculty.

In USA, getting funding is very stressful even if you are in a top tier university. In India, funding is easy if you are in IISc/IIT. However, admin support and technical support needs lot of improvement. Unlike the USA, this is essentially a government job and, therefore, one can not be sacked for non-performance. Unlike the USA, where increments in salary is linked to performance, here everyone essentially gets the same salary.

Regarding students, I think they are comparable to the top 20 univ in USA. Many of my students have been very good and better than what I was at that age.

"However, for someone who did not go to graduate school in India, the contact network of funding agencies needs to be built from scratch. Prof. Madras, I noticed that you got your PhD from Texas A&M. Did you have any trouble finding the right people/organizations for funding when you started as a faculty member?"

Not at all. You can write proposals to standard organizations like DST, DBT, and so many other agencies. Senior faculty will guide you where to write etc. Also, many senior faculty serve on the other side (decide the funding). Funding of less than 25 lakhs for three years is not a problem. Further, if you are from IISc, they will give you the first project and then judge you only for subsequent projects.

Please read my colleagues post,

http://kaisare.org/blog/2009/04/07/starting-academic-career-in-india/

The 15 lakh he mentions in the post has gone up to 35 lakh recently.

Anonymous said...

50 lakhs seem to be very reasonable given that there is no tenure requirement in IIXs. However Experimentl work may be a little dificult sometimes with 50 lakhs especially for people who deal with optical diagnostics (like myself). But I guess with central facilties and collaborations with senior faculties who have the required equipments during the initial buildup phase may be the way to go for young Asst. Professors.
Thanks to Prof. Madras for providing comprehensive guidance and informations to the prospective faculties.

Prof. SB

Rupesh Nasre. said...

Dear Sir,

Your blog has excellent information in numbers, rather than vague feelings. The information must be helping several candidates to join IISc as a faculty which, according to me, is wonderful.

As a student, my general opinion of IISc faculty is that they are either too busy with their work or are too shy to blog. I am sure several of them have some useful information to share -- could be related to their own research. But I am disappointed to see the amount of their web-presence. Even, some of the non-IISc faculty members who comment on your blog do it anonymously. Is a faculty member's position so delicate that he loses his expression ability?

-rupesh.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof Madras
Could you please inform us the criteria for out-of-the-term promotion in IISc (though it is rare event). Is it like if somebody can show the same output, (which he needs to show for his regular promotion at 6th year) before 6 yrs he will be promoted?

YF

Giri@iisc said...

Rupesh: Many are indeed very busy. Others do not want everything to be said publicly. Some of the stuff can also be misinterpreted. Many think writing a blog or making a webpage is VERY difficult and one needs special software. Finally, many have a life outside IISc, which I don't :-;

YF: That can be never valid in any system. Early means exceptional. My advisor told me the rule for Ph.D when I joined.

5 years - 1 paper
4 years - 3 papers
3 years - 6 papers
2 years - 9 papers
1 year - 15 papers
of very good quality.

I finished my Ph.D in two years (including course work).

Similarly, in IISc, if you are to be promoted out-of-turn you need have output that is significantly higher than what you would get normally. By following your rule, I would be promoted in the first year itself. To give you an idea, I had 64 papers in the first five years, when I was promoted. My next promotion was very early by IISc standards (in 3.5 years) and I had 94 papers in that period. As I said earlier, these numbers are only papers in standard journals (impact factor of 2 to 4), not something in PNAS/Nature/Science. I am sure if you have 3 papers in Nature, one will be considered for promotion.

Basically, you need to show significant output (not in numbers, but in quality, impact factor, h-index, citations, patents, funding etc.) to get promoted earlier.

I also want to mention one more thing about funding. The funding from DST, DBT etc is only between 10-20% overall. What I meant by 80-90% acceptance is for IISc faculty who have either newly joined or have shown output in their previous project.


Thanks

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

Sir,

From your post I understand that you had published 9 papers in 2 years and completed your course work as well. Thats an unbelievable effort. But I am thinking you must have really lucky to get an extremely novel project. I am sure most of the student who do Phd may have preference of area but I dont think they can really chose a project unless you are on a fellowship. In my area I myself know about 15 groups working on the same topic and I really slogged for 2 years to get my first publication. I definitely would like to commend your effort wen u were a student and it is inspirational. But I strongly feel that the number of publications is directly proportional to the kind of project u work on over which most of the students have no control. I strongly feel that the recruiters at IISc, IIXs should consider this issue.

regards
DaDa

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Giridhar,

I have a few questions regarding the offer letter.

1) Would you please tell me the meaning of the sentence "The appointment at the Institute is normally on contract for a period of five years from the date on which you report for duty of which the first year will be on probation." Is this "on contract" the same way that other assistant professors are hired?

Does the basic pay differs with the amount of post PhD experience? I have 5yrs post PhD and have been offered "Rs.30,000/- per month in the pay band of Rs.15600-39100 with an academic grade pay of Rs.8000/-p.m.".

Do the air tickets for family also count for relocation expenses reimbursement?

Thank you very much for your help.

K.

Anonymous said...

I have a question that is not related with the post.

Does anybody have experience (good or bad) with sending their children to KV IISc?

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Hi k,

Could you please throw some light on your credentials with which you got into IISc and your area of expertise? This would be of great help for me to evaluate whether I am in a good situation to apply or get some more publications?

kar

Giri@iisc said...

Dear K: All faculty are hired on contract for five years. Regarding pay, the basic is decided by the selection committee and differs from candidate to candidate. Regarding relocation expenses, it is a lumpsum amount of Rs. 1.25 lakhs, I think.

Regarding sending children to KV, IISc, please check with some faculty who send their kids there.

Dear Kar,

Things differ from each department. There is nothing wrong applying twice, if one is rejected the first time.


Giridhar

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Giridhar,

I had applied for an AP position in one of the old IITs with reference to an advertisement which was posted before the OCAP matter came in. I am hopeful to get the offer letter now. Please let me know whether my position will be an OCAP or a regular AP as I had applied for a regular AP post. Thank you in advance.

Anonymous said...

I have an offer from IISc, and I asked about KV-IISc while visiting. I heard that faculty has mixed opinions on this KV. Some are very happy while others prefer to send their kids to private schools.

I will give you my two cents on the KV system. The curriculum is excellent and extra-curricular activity is good. The emphasis is on academics and math and science subjects are probably the most rigorous you can find in India. I have heard that KV teachers are central govt employees and undergo a rigorous selection process and usually get better pay/benefits than many private school teachers. So, you should expect good education overall.

Primary education in India is usually not as good as in the US and the KV system is no exception. So, you need to take an active interest in your kids' education in the formative years. Secondary education is very good from an academic standpoint and the CBSE is considered very good for math/science.

I have also heard that the KV at IISc is one of the few schools in Bangalore to be blessed with a huge playground and some faculty members at IISc are also on the school managing committee (Prof. Madras, please correct me if I am wrong). The greatest plus is that
for new faculty at IISc, kids admission is guaranteed and this really helps if you are coming from abroad. You don't have to stand in long lines for kids admission with a wad of cash as seems to be the case in Bangalore today.

A

Anonymous said...

Dr Giri,

Doesn't a rejection the first time weigh down the options of getting through the second time? How does the recruitment committee view his/her application? Is there a separate procedure for those applicants who are rejected for the first time? Is there any rule specifying the number of times a person can apply for a faculty position?

kar

s.b. said...

Look, what these idiots kept on doing in IITs and IISc, and will keep on doing in future too:

"the normal period of promotion is 6 years from assistant professor to associate professor and 6 years from associate professor to full professor."

Dont forget, by normal they mean minimum. In NITs, AICTE and UGC engineering colleges, a faculty member could become professor in 8 years in 5thPC by simple CAS, and now he can become professor only in 3 years time by satisfying a well defined point system.

Can you tell me, why a post-doc would join you if he could get it in 3years elsewhere, whatever you are giving him in 12 years?

s.b. said...

Dear Anony @ October 29, 2009 9:30 AM

Your comment:
"The appointment at the Institute is normally on contract for a period of five years from the date on which you report for duty of which the first year will be on probation." Is this "on contract" the same way that other assistant professors are hired?"

It simpaly means that you will be an adhoc appointee for 5 years and will be given 2-3 classes of 200-250 students per semester.

Believe me, the existing permanent employees flatly refuse to take these classes. Only a person on contract or adhoc appointee can bear so much humiliation. So they are incraesing the "period of insecurity" from 1 year to 5 years by taking full advantage of recession in USA.

s.b. said...

Prof. Giri

I dare you not to delete my comments and let have a healthy debate on issues, I have raised in my posts.

Anonymous said...

Mr S.B,

I dont think IISc has any class which has 200 - 250 students. I think your arguments are out of place. dont mix iits and iisc. no body can help the situation in IITs if its really bad and arguing in this forum doesn't help your cause. Restrain yourself from dragging Dr Giri in to your arguments. If Dr Giri stops blogging as he had said before it would be a real pity and sad. I think his blogs are honest and gives a fair reflection of whats going on and he gives great advise to incumbent Phds like me. Lets not drag him in to this discussion of unfair treatment in IITs.

kar

s.b. said...

Sriram,

Let me make your basics strong.

Why a Ph.D. with 3 years experience will apply for AGP6000, when he is eligible for AGP9000 and designation of Associate Professor in UGC/NITs/AICTE institutes? Further, this 3 years' experience criteria may be relaxed, if the candidate is outstanding.

So dont make fool of post-docs and dont try to lure them to join IITs, if they see bright future in NonIIX institutes.

Let me repeat, a postdoc guy joining UGC/NITs/AICTE institutes as Associate professor with AGP9000 will become Professor in 4 years. However, in IITs, the same guy will take 12 years as mentioned by Prof. Madras.

RP said...

@SB
Its not the money alone that matters. I, like many, prefer joining IIXs even if the salary is low and promotions are slow.

s.b. said...

Look, what IITG director Barua is doing with existing assistant professors:

An asstt. prof. with 9 years experience on 1.1.2006 is being fixed in PB3 with basic of 38000.

If this unfortunate fellow was in UGC/NITs/AICTE institute, he would have been fixed in basic of 50,000. Also, by virtue of being in IIT, he has lost around 4 lakhs of arrears w.r.t. his nonIIT counterpart.

The same Barua was making big promises to prospective candiadtes few days back on this forum.

iitmsriram said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Dear sb,
Despite AIIITFF and directors' best efforts, the minister was not convinced. No further revision of payscales is possible now. Nothing can be done about it. Its a fact that should be strongly remembered. Wise people like you should not grieve over the inevitable. That's exactly what others are doing.
It is the duty of directors to attract the best faculty to their respective institutes. I am glad Prof. Barua went a little further advertising in forums where prospective candidates are looking for information.

MRavi said...

Dear s.b.
your comment:
A Ph.D. in engineering with 3 years experience will get PB3 (AGP8000) and Assistant Professor designation in IITs.

A Ph.D. in engineering with 3 years experience will get PB4 and Associate professor designation (with AGP9000) in UGC/NITs/AICTE institutes

It is really a waking call for so many of us with more than 3 years pre/post PhD exper. and working as APs with 30K basic in IITs.see, if you get PhD student in NITs, it is better to join NITs as Asso. and after 04 yeras Prof. BTech students in IITs or NITs are not going to contribute for research work, for them IITs/NITs are just a place to get top class jobs.
I do agree with you fully and conclude that PhD with 03 yeras expr. should join NITs as Assos, not IITs atleast new IITssssss.

iitmsriram said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Prof. Sriram,

Sorry for quoting you slightly wrong. I guess i was trying to learn for my own students (intent on joining IIXs) about the details of the selection procedure. I understand that you meant maximum percentage of rejection can be as high as 25 %.

Prof. S.B

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Madras,

forgive my ignorance. Is the 5 -year contract procedure in IISc equivalent to the tenure system in US. Is this period the same for fresh PhD and ones with 2-3 years of experience. How is this 5-year contract different from the OCAP except maybe the starting salary.
Are there instances of people not being renewed after 5 years. Lastly after the 5 year contract is over is there a fresh 5 year contract.

Anonymous said...

I wonder how S.B (prof from USA) can be so uncivilized and unprofessional in his comments.

S.B.,

Gather the facts and do your homework before posting. If you are uncertain about something, do not state it as a fact.

Prof. Giri and Sriram,

I think such comments should be deleted.

Anonymous said...

I believe there are two SB (one from US who posts anonymous) and other SB is from IIX with lot of grievances.

But civility has nothing to do with US or India. Our Indian SB should also display some degree of civility. Probably he can make his point better if he can include some politeness.

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

please realize that there are two s.b. I am a professor in US and have nothing to do with the comments of the other S.B who maybe a member of IIX.
Maybe i should have used other initials.

Thanks
Prof. S.B

s.b. said...

OK.. I will be polite now onwards.

Dear Prof. Sriram,

Sir, look at the following advertisement for faculty position in various streams including science stream (excluding engineering stream) in Delhi University:

http://www.du.ac.in/forms/advt-210-science-annx1.pdf

For the post of Associate Professor (PB4, AGP9000), it describes the qualifications as follows:

1. Good academic record with a doctoral degree or equivalent published work.

2. Five years of experience of teaching and/or research

Please keep in mind that the advertisement is for non-engineering streams. So, for engineering stream the qualification will be M.Tech. (which is equivalent to Ph.D. for science stream) and Ph.D. duration may be considered as research experience.

s.b. said...

Look at the level of awareness of these guys at helm of affairs. A central university is hiring people in PB4 with 5 years of post M.Tech. experience and these guys are busy in justifying PB4 for 6 years postdoc experience in IIX on all forums.

iitmsriram said...

Dear sb(india),

I have seen this advertisement from Delhi University and there is also another similar one from Hyderabad University. Your argument about Science PhD and Engineering PhD might be logical, but is not recognized in the UGC draft regulations. This draft (dated September) which can be found at the UGC website states on page 17 under qualifications for associate professor in engineering and technology, "Ph.D. Degree with First Class at Bachelor’s or Master’s Degree in the appropriate branch of Engg., & Tech., and experience of 5 years in teaching, research and / or industry at the level of Lecturer/Assistant Professor or equivalent grade, excluding period spent on obtaining the research degree". The corresponding wording in the earlier Feb 2009 draft regulations reads (after PhD, first class etc) "A minimum of eight years of experience of teaching and / or of research in a regular position equivalent to that of Assistant Professor in a University /
College or Accredited Research Institution with evidence of published work with a minimum of 5 publications as books and/or research/policy papers in
indexed/ISBN/ISSN numbered journals and as ISBN/ISSN numbered books." The September draft has other problems, like someone hired on 12000 scale in dec 2005 will get PB4 in dec 2008 (after 3 years in the scale) but someone hired on the same 12000 scale in or after jan 2006 will get PB4 on the date of joining. Inside word is that MHRD has put this september draft on hold pending clearing of issues like this. We will have to wait and see where this settles down. I was invited by the IIT faculty federation to present this IIT & NIT comparison to the IIT directors in IITD on Oct 3. The directors collectively stated that they would work to ensure that IIT faculty do not get anything less than their NIT counterparts and I will take that statement at face value. We have to wait and see how this plays out.

s.b. said...

Dear Prof. Sriram,

Your comment
"The directors collectively stated that they would work to ensure that IIT faculty do not get anything less than their NIT counterparts and I will take that statement at face value. We have to wait and see how this plays out."

Ok.. for the time being i trust you that full justice will be done to IIX regular asstt. profs and they too will start getting PB4 from date of joining like their UGC counterparts are all set to get.

But what is your take on following:

UGC/NITs/AICTE associate professor will take minimum 4 years to become professor

IIX assistant professor will take minimum 12 years as per the comment of Prof. Madras.

Anonymous said...

Dear SB (India),

See you are making some good progress now with a little bit of cool. Your frustrations may be valid at times, but unfortunately they don't help you if expressed continuously.

As Prof. Sriram indicated in one of his earliest posts, that he is not part of the faculty federation, is there no way for you to communicate directly with them? It may help everyone with more informed decision.

Good Luck

s.b. said...

I know, you dont have answer for my previous post. It was a blunder that can not be corrected now. IIT assistant professors will have to live with it. IIX guys will get benifits of AGP10000 later by atleast 8 years than their UGC counterparts.

s.b. said...

Look at the following disaster caused by these people:

An IIX assistant professor will have to face 2 interviews (of absolutely vague nature) to get the benifits of AGP10000.

His counterpart at UGC/NITs/AICTE will have to satisfy well defined APIs to get benifits of AGP10000.

I feel myself very civilised calling these guys idiots, who justify such a pay structre in IIX.

iitmsriram said...

SB-I (for India) wants to know

"But what is your take on following:

UGC/NITs/AICTE associate professor will take minimum 4 years to become professor"

Actually, it is 3 years as per the MHRD notification (not UGC draft regulations). I will not make any speculation based on draft documents since we have no idea how things will actually end up. Giridhar's comment is about the default time scales for someone entering IISc (IITs are perhaps a bit more liberal). Some things are set to change with the sixth pay commission and this time scale may shrink a bit; for example, the IIX associate professor requirement is changing from (8 years experience of which 3 should be at the level of assistant professor) to (6 & 3 years). I think the following table showing PhD plus years of experience and the achievable cadre may put things in context. Automatic means no interview or selection (assuming some minimum requirements are met), recruitment implies has to be through evaluation and interviews.

3 years ass prof IIX, minimum 30000 + 8000 grade pay

3 years NIT ass prof 22580 + 7000 grade pay (automatic)

6 years NIT ass prof 25340 + 8000 grade pay (automatic)

5?6?8? years NIT asso prof PB4 37400 + 9000 grade pay (recruitment); the ? is because there are three documents giving the three different figures

6 years IIX ass prof PB4 37400 + 9000 grade pay (automatic)

6 years IIX asso prof minimum 42800 + 9500 grade pay (recruitment)

9 years NIT asso prof PB4 37400 + 9000 grade pay (automatic)

10 years NIT prof minimum 43000 + 10000 (recruitment); could also be 8?9?11? automatic for recruited asso profs. If one gets automatically at 8 or 9 what is the meaning of recruitment at 10?

10 years IIX prof minimum 48000 + 10500 (recruitment)

10 years as NIT professor = NIT prof+ min 48000 + 12000 (limited to 20% of profs)

6 years as IIX prof = IIX prof+ min 57340 + 12000 (limited to 40% of profs)

I think that should give an idea of the career progression prospects in the NIT and IIX systems. One thing the IIX system does not have is automatic progression (except for assistant professors going into PB4).

s.b. said...

.. and even if it is PhD plus 5 years for NITs (i know it will never be more than 3 years), why you guys accepted happily PhD plus 6 years for IIX.

You guys definitely owe an unconditional apology to the nation in general and IIX assistant profs in particular.

iitmsriram said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
iitmsriram said...

sb-i, who is this "you guys"; if it means AIIITTF, please state so. I have nothing to do with what the faculty associations or faculty federation have accepted or not accepted.

s.b. said...

Ok. Now I ask you 2 questions straight forwardly looking at the present status:

1. If it is PhD plus 5 years for NITs, why you guys accepted happily PhD plus 6 years for IIX for moving to AGP9000?

2. If Pre-revised 12000 NIT guy requires to get through only one interview to enjoy the benifits of AGP10000 and more. Why the IIX guy will have to face 2 interviews for the same?

Please, dont piss around the bushes this time.

s.b. said...

Another thing:

When your juniors were getting less than their counterparts in NITs, how you guys kept on demanding shamelessly the removal of 40% cap on AGP12000, which was already far more than your counterparts (20%) in NITs.

iitmsriram said...

sb-i,

Once again, if you guys = faculty federation or your faculty association, please go and ask them, not me. Nevertheless, I will try to answer.

For (1): There are three draft notifications for NIT and the three give the eligibility for Associate Professor as PhD plus 5, 6 and 8 years. Till we know which draft is going to be implemented, what is there to argue?

For (2): IIXs have so far not given any grade advancement without interviews whereas NIT and UGC have been giving.

iitmsriram said...

sb-i,

Is it possible for you to believe that I am not your faculty association or faculty federation? Maybe, you should start another of your popular blogs about how your faculty association and faculty federation are not listening to you.

s.b. said...

I know, you have nothing to do with AIIITTF. I am sending these messeges to them from day 1 of protest. But, of no use.

"IIXs have so far not given any grade advancement without interviews whereas NIT and UGC have been giving."

If this is the case, there should not be any term like "normally it takes 12 years to become professor from assistant professor". It should be earlier than that of NITs in most of the cases. Otherwise what is the fun in joining IIX.

IIX must look into it. If NITs promoting their guys from AGP 9000 to 10,000 in 4 years. IIT must promote their assistant profs with AGP 9000 to Profs in 3 years in most of the cases. But this is impossible, i know.

iitmsriram said...

sb-i,

NITs have a certain (lets us say, moderate) expectation of performance to progress through the ranks. IIX have consciously tried to maintain a higher expectation, IISc even more so. It would be tragic to level the IIX down to the NIT standard by focussing on pay. Where does that levelling down stop? Even today, there are private colleges and deemed universities that will give title of Professor and Head to a fresh PhD (because this may be the ONLY PhD holder they have). Should IIX also go that way?

Anonymous said...

Dear SB and Sriram

Please stop this arguments and counter aguments. Some general readers like me are feeling bore. It is not leading to anywhere.

Surprisingly nobody is discussing some interesting issues raised by CAPS LOCK. Is there any index to measure the difficulty of the problem investigated by a faculty. If a faculty publishing a lot, does it mean he is not handing too difficult problem but merely sharing some information (most of the time not useful for practical application)? How to compare performance with a experimental guy with somebody who deals with mathematical problem?

s.b. said...

See, earlier NIT guys used to take 8 years to be promoted automatically from assistant professor (basic 12000) to professor (16400) post. IIX normally took 6 years against their 8 years. But then their professor was equivalent to our associate. In 6thPC their professor is made equivalent to our professor by awarding same AGP (benifitwise). And they are now making a AGP9000 guy, a professor in 4 years. So IIT should think of earlier than that.

Otherwise, be ready for attrition at middle level cadre in IIX.

iitmsriram said...

Agree with anon, I will not respond to sb-i anymore. In fact, I will do better than that - I will delete all my posts in this that are responses to sb-i and have no other useful information.

Coming back to your question, if the evaluation is done by experts in the subject area, hopefully, they can make the distinction? The IISc system exemplifies this by counting on 8 referees to submit evaluative reports.

s.b. said...

i never asked u anything.. did i ?

Anonymous said...

See question is not with promotion, which is department wise and cross-disipline comparison is not an issue. But there are some other things, e.g., who will be in HAG scale if institute decides that x% of total institute faculty will be there...in that case how you compare the performances of faculty members over different diciplene.

s.b. said...

it is just the begining of dog fight.

MMJha said...

Dear sb (India)
i am with you on the issue of NIT and IIT promotions. what I feel MHRD has delibaretly tried to scale down IITs/IISc.They are favouring 20+ NITs/CU as they are producing engineers, who stays in India. Our minister says IIT is good as they get very good students and not due to faculties there. I have not seen in nay of his intervies/media appearnce, appreciating IIT faculties.
and ofcourse, if IIT directors are not going to safeguard PhD+5 years expr., there will be mass exit from IITs. see for senior fellows already at Professor or even Assoc. prof, they are not going to loose naything, but for new ones it is really important.. I don't know what will happen to the mew IITs, again set up by MHRD without any planning....
I have an offer from one of the new IITs and have PhD in engineering+6 years exp..

Trichur said...

I would like to respond to the issue of across the board comparison. You simply can not do that. In our (NIMHANS) system we have both clinicians and basic scientists. Clinicians in certain specialities are simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of patients they have to take care of. You can not expect them to produce star publications and have several funded projects. Moreover AIIMS, PGI and NIMHANS have a quota system for promotion.Only 50%(across the disciplines)of the eligible additional professors can be promoted as Professors. The selection committee for each discipline has to determine,only whether the candidate is fit for promotion or not (NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS). The quota system is operated based on seniority amongst the candidates who have been found to be fit for promotion.

This system although not flawless, has found a general acceptance amongst the faculty

s.b. said...

Dear Dr MM Jha

What basic pay is offered to you by that new IIT?

MMJha said...

Dear SB
It is 12K+5 increment.The bunching of 9 increments is again a big problem. To attrcat APs in IITs, this bunching is a negative impact.I am waiting for the advt. of some good NITs.I feel NITs will be better than new IITs,as you will continue with ur research.

s.b. said...

Dear Jha

Getting PB4 in any NIT will be cake walk for you. Once the UGC final notification is out, all NITs will advertise associate professor vacancy, most probably with eligibility criteria of M.Tech. + 5 years of experience.

Anonymous said...

Folks, the bottom line here is not about IIT vs. NIT, but what we can do in our academic careers. One can succeed in either place. Monetary compensation is a very different discussion. Ask anybody with an offer letter from IISc which one they will prefer, IISc or any NIT?

I meet abroad Assistant/Associate/ Professors from IIT, NIT, IISc. They all have outstanding career achievements, but I never heard the level of complains about life in India, salaries, or promotion unfairness as I read many times in the comments on this blog. In fact, they were all very happy with their career choices. If one is not doing well in their research and/or he doesn't like to teach, there is no salary high enough to make him happy.

SB, academia is not about money. Please, recognize your limited knowledge in this matter. I wouldn't be surprised if you are a PhD student or a postdoc in India, because you write like you are young and on fire ;-).

It's ok to be naive, but it's important to concentrate on what really matters. I'm sure you have many ways to contribute to this blog, independent of what you do or what is your background. If we like to be heard (not only here, but in any other matter in our lives), we have to make a stand for ourselves. Where do you stand (viz., show why we have to listen to you)?

Prof. Giridhar is our host, he made a place where we can learn many interest things and exchange our opinions on a variety of subjects related with academia in India. Trolls (know who you are), please respect this place.

M.

P.S.: I won't answer back to any reply to my post. If SB feel offended, be it. He repeatedly did the same with others.

MMJha said...

Dear anon@6:28pm
your point is very well taken by me and may be by sb also.but, the way MHRD has taken the issue for IITs seems very illogical.well at the end,we all accept what is stored for us.but in Indian system,any rule/norms need to be addressed, but the problem is people at the helm of affair at MHRD are not atall competent enough to address our problems.we catch anything thrown to us and that is to me is pethatic for young faculties be at IIT or IISc or NIT. we are not behind money, but we need to be convinced, afterall we are thinking people who try to find reason...
thanks for your commnet

s.b. said...

Neither I chat to any tom, dick and harry, nor I reply them. I was here to give lessons to a guy (who have a role to play with AIIITTF in bargaining with MHRD) on 5th and 6thPC fixation for IIX/NITs. In my opinion, only spineless guys can think of accepting salaries less than NITians. How can we accept lesser salary to the guys for whom we use to be M.Tech. and Ph.D. supervisor?

For your kind information, I am an IIT product and currently working as asstt. prof. there for last 5 years. I see lot of guys saluting me daily, who joined recently after doing Ph.D. and post-doc from USA, loittering around in corridors of my department. It is the culture of IIT that a junior is always a junior, no matter what qualification and credentials he has. Promotions too take place mostly in that order.

Anonymous said...

Dear SB (India),

I see amazing fire, energy and desire in you to bring justice.

How nice it would be if you get rid of your arrogance, frustration and rudeness while fighting against injustice?

There is no way you will get justice even if you teach a lesson to "someone". You have to be on the right forum and raise your point in a more positive and professional manner.

Good Luck.

s.b. said...

Look, this guy (10 years younger to me) from NIT joined PhD in 2005 under my supervision. He was lecturer there. In January 2006, he appeared in interview for assistant professor there and got selected as he was having M.Tech. plus 5 years experience. He has been awarded Ph.D. in 2008.

He called me yesterday, he has been given associate professorship and PB4 (46400) since Jan 2006 based on UGC notification. And he will become professor after a couple of months in Jan 2010.

Now look at me, his supervisor, 10 years elder to him is being fixed in PB3 (38000) in Jan 2006 and is still an assistant professor. And may become professor only after 6-8 years from now.

Anonymous said...

Mr SB,

All you can talk about is pay bands and how much you are earning or some body else is earning. If that is your problem can you explain why the heck did you chose academia in the first place? People like you are a shame especially with your attitude . You are basically crying at your student's success which is pathetic. And your funda of junior remains a junior is utter rubbish. Now I understand why IITs remain the way they are now. People like you are just good for nothing. And you keep bragging about your publications which are minimal. Its ok if you are outstanding and u feel bad wen people dont reward you. Your attitude is just pathetic and you are soon going to become a disgrace. I would advise to every student not to join you someone who cries over a student's success. I request everybody not to entertain this guy by replying to him and this is my sincere plea to Dr. Giri to just block this person. Sir please dont entertain these out of context discussions. Both SB and iitmsriram can have common blog of their own and discuss all this nonsense. These two guys are good reflections of the IIT system and the kind of people u expect to meet in the IIT system. Sir people like who have valid question about IISc, faculty interviews etc are being really affected by these people who are making this blog their own.

kar

Anonymous said...

Hey SB (India)

You have angered a lot of people by your arrogant remarks. It is time for you to bail out of this blog. You have been warned.

Anonymous said...

Prof. Madras,

Can you please block SB (India) after you return?

Thanks

iitmsriram said...

Dear kar,

I am sorry you feel unhappy about my presence on this blog; I have not attacked anyone personally, called anyone names or posted anything derogatory about IIX or any individual. I have tried to share information in my possession with the belief that this information may be useful to others. After the anon comment yesterday, I have myself deleted most of my responses on this thread and have committed not to respond to any taunts. If that is not enough, ok, fine, I will leave. Let that be our host's call. Allow me to close by stating that I am saddened by your comment "These two guys are good reflections of the IIT system and the kind of people u expect to meet in the IIT system". Ouch.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Giri,

Venom's apart, the point SB(I) raises appears to have substance. If he is removed, we shall have a 'feel-good' atmosphere but that could be somewhat far from the truth. If SB(I) was selected as AP in a IIT, he definitely had/has potential and is not just another individual. Not everybody comes out in open to vent their frustration. That does not mean there is nothing to be frustrated. SB(I)'s presence gives much needed contrarian view of the topic and covers it in full 360 degree. Pay is an issue as it is generating max. comments of all your or Abi's post. Let us listen to all. We wish if the language is sober. But if somebody is utterly frustrated we can allow exceptions. What is important if the voice is sincere, the message genuine. We have the capacity to read between those phrases. Let us be receptive to all. Else people like SB(I) will be more frustrated and that won't be good for him, his students, his IIT. Also, I don't find anything wrong in the point he has made regarding his student at NIT getting PhD in 2008 and becoming Asso. Prof. I don't buy the argument that he is jealous of his student's success. It is an evidence that all is not well in the mapping, 6PC. And except people he knows (like students and friends) where else he can get evidence? And if he does not produce evidence, shall we believe him?

Prof. SB(I), I salute your courage. May be you can polish your language a bit for mass consumption. Also, it might be against IIT statute to talk against authority in public forum and belittle it.

Prof. iitmsriram, pls. don't leave. Your contributions are valuable. Going forward, I see you and SB(I) working together for the welfare of IIT system. Both of you want it to be better. And I am sure you will see value in each other once this phase of pent up feelings are over. Being an ex-student of IIT I would like to see that it succeeds.

My thanks to all contributors speaking in various languages. It helps me to understand the situation better.

Regards

Purab

Anonymous said...

Dr. Sriram,

I should agree that my comment has been some what harsh. I dont want anyone to leave this blog and I am nobody to claim that. I was just making a point that discussions between you and SB are out of context and they are not supporting anybody's cause. The GO is out and the faculty federation has accepted the pay. I think there is no point in discussing that now. My intention was not to make a point on the whole community of IIXs. I know myself a number of good people. I would like to reiterate that it was not my intention to make point on the whole community of IIXs. In fact even my comment is out of context as I dont know both of u personally. If you felt that my comment was personal, I apologize

XX (kar)

s.b. said...

Jealous, my foot. Why would I jealous with a kid who touches my feet? Why would I jealous with a kid who doesnt dare to keep on sitting when I am around? Why would I jealous with a kid who says me sir atleat 10 times in a sentance? But that is not what I wanna tell you in this post.

Let me make you few things very clear:

1. Neither I need anybody's apology for anything they said about me on this forum, nor I feel apologetic for whatever I have written on this forum. I am not going to delete any of my posts. At the same time I can not stop the blog master from deleting my posts.

2. I dont fear from getting banned, means I am not going to change my tone as this is the only tone which is heared by all. I learned it from my experiences on this forum only.

3. 6PC has completely changed the academic jobs scenerio in India. Two heavy weights (i am making my tone a little bit mild) still arguing their institutes better than NITs. They are justifying the following:

1. 5 years contract period with first year as probation in IISc.

2. 12 years as normal time for promoting from assistant to professor level in IIX.

Only an idiot with 3 years' post-doc experience will join them now, when he can get easily associate at joining and Professor designation with topmost AGP (benifitwise) in four years in any NIT. Also, his appointment at associate level will be of permanent type (not of that 5 yrs contract type which IISc gives).

Someone may say, then why I joined IIT. In 5PC, IIT was having upper hand at all levels. Also, at this stage, I cant switch over to NIT, as doing so, I will become junior to my student who is 10 years younger to me.

Anonymous said...

Mr SB,

No body is apologetic to you. The GO is done and dusted and faculty federation accepted the pay as well. There is no point in crying anymore. Stop being hard on yourself and ur work. You definitely have a valid point but do you really think that this is the place to express your opinions? Are you gaining anything from it?

MMJha said...

Dear SB(I)
I am facing the same situation.one of my colleague with M.tech+5years expr. and subsequent PhD (UPTU) in 2009, is now Associate Prof at PB-4. I will be at 38K at IIT and then after 03 yeras PB-4.To become Associate, I do not know, how much time/publications/projects will be required.so, I do not know where I am heading in new IIT system. anbody form MHRD or IIT directors is listining to me or you???????

s.b. said...

Dear Jha,

Just wait for another week. Once the final UGC notification is out, NITs will advertise several posts of Asso. Profs. The qualification will most probably M.Tech. plus 5 years experience (or at the most Ph.D. plus 3 years). As I told you earlier, it will be a cake walk for you to get through.

s.b. said...

As far as IITs are concerned, the first sentence of this thread tells the entire story. It is valid for entire IIX system:

"In IISc, the normal period of promotion is 6 years from assistant professor to associate professor and 6 years from associate professor to full professor. At the end of 5.5 years, the section will ask you to file your papers."

In my institute IITD, a faculty member never gets promotions earlier than this. However, few exceptions having contacts of very high level are always there, but they are very rare.

Anonymous said...

Those who want to discuss promotion grievances, please discuss at
http://unfairpromotionsatiits.blogspot.com/

Your constructive grudges can be vented at that blog.

This is not a public forum. This is a personal blog of Prof. Giridhar Madras. I repeat Prof. Giridhar's request:

"Please do NOT post individual grievances in response to this post. This post is only meant to provide the norms and guidelines that exist in these places."

MMJha said...

Dear SB
Thanks for your information. I will definitely wait for the advert. of NITs for Assoc.IITs are going to face another problem to get PhDs with less than 03 years expr. as AP on contract. I do not think, they will get more applicants for AP on contract at least 8 new IITs.They may prefer NITs/IIIT.

gautam said...

This is regarding pay scales at IIX vis-a-vis NITs and UNivs.

1. When you compare a person at an NIT, please also take into consideration how many years of service he has put in. Do not look at only his date of PhD. You will find that in almost all cases, the person concerned has spent many years as a faculty and so we should not grudge him his PB4.
2. If NITs can give better pay scales than IIX and this results in migration from IITXes to NITs, it will be a great day for technical education in India. The NITs will benefit a lot, and in the process the IIXes will too.
3. IIT Directors are still trying to give PB4 to all APs who have 3 or more years exp on 1.1.2006, and others when they complete 3 years. We are hopeful an interpretation of the orders will enable this to take place.

s.b. said...

gautam

are u trying to say that who do regular m.tech., ph.d. and post-doc are idiots.. and those who acquire these degrees part-time or under QIP being in service deserves pb4 earlier?

MMJha said...

dear gautam
you are right, now PhDs with less than 03 yeras exper. will move to NITs as in IITs they will be on contract for 03 years. also, PhD with more exper. will head to NITs, as they may be taken as Assoc. in PB4. i am not sure about the exit from old IITs, but new IITs are going to face these problems. am I right SB?

s.b. said...

NITs will definitely open their doors for talented guys who have Ph.D. and post-doc from abroad. I am sure that qualification of asso. prof. for candidates with engineering background will be MTech with few years of experience.

Even NITs will try to accommodate fresh Ph.D. from USA or UK in their Asso. prof. cadre, by considering Ph.D. duration as research experience after M.Tech.

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

I dont believe that several of the current IIX faculty will migrate to NITs even if there exists some better payband and easy/quick promotion at NITs.

The reason being there is a hell of a difference in the research quality and culture in IIX vs NITs. The "research quality difference" is at least 100 times more than the "different in salary" (dont include few exceptions in NITs).

Recently I met HOD of Mechanical Engineering of a very old and famous NIT. During our conversation, this HOD told me that US Air Force has named some of its plane after being inspired by Guru "Dronacharya" of Mahabharata. Later I realized he was referring to unmanned aircraft "Drones" being used in Afghanistan. And believe me this HOD was serious and not joking.

How many of IIX faculty would like to join NITs with such HODs? This HOD is not an exception. I met faculty of 2 other NIT departments and all they were interested in having chai/coffee/pepsi/samosa and how to plan a US trip?

Prof. Kaushal at IITD (same place where Prof. SB-India comes from) has posted horror stories of NITs.

If Prof. SB (India) focuses more on his work/research and not feel satisfied of his achievements that his student does not sit in front of him, touches his feet etc...(what a crap) then he can also do wonders. Please dont be complacent with 21 publications after 5 years of PhD. Some of the new Asst. Prof. joining IIX start with 20 or more publications. Browsw the websites of these new guys.

And above all, if you cant be polite and civil in making your point what kind of education you are providing to your students.

An ex-IITian and now a Prof. in US

s.b. said...

In 5PC, the ball was in IITs' court. IITs manipulated the pre-revised 12000 basic to take fresh Ph.D. by considering Ph.D. duration as experience. This time, due to stupidity of people who represented IITs, ball has reached in NITs' court. They will now use PB4 as a tool to attract fresh talents.

Earlier, guys had to opt either 12000 in IIT or 12000 in NIT. Obviously they used to opt IIT.

Now it will be PB3 in IIT or PB4 in NIT. Obviously, the huge difference in salary and easy movement to higher AGP will make guys moving towards NITs.

Anonymous said...

Following are couple of anecdotes.

Recently a Professor in a top 5 NIT moved to a new IIT and became an Associate Professor.

Another NIT Professor from a top 5 NIT, who is close to retirement, was offered a founding vice chancellor position of a new university. He declined that position and accepted an offer to become a Professor at a new IIT. I was told, he had long dreamt of being an IIT faculty and could not pass up that chance.

==

I know of a famous example of a Professor in Computer Science in a US state university (decent one) who moved to become an asst Professor at MIT. Eventually he became a full professor at MIT.

In US it is common for people to not care about salaries if one is moving to a much better and more reputed university. Lesser universities often go for a bidding war to get a faculty from a reputed university to come there as a chair professor.

MMJha said...

Anony @ November 1, 2009 8:42 PM
what you will suggest to new faculties, with PhD with some exper. to join new IITs or NITs

Anonymous said...

@mmjha

Of course, join an IIT.

Anonymous said...

@mmjha

Of course, Join a new IIT.

The new IITs have all their faculty with PhDs and publications. The best of the NITs still have faculty w/o Ph.Ds.

Then think of the PhD scholars. They will prefer IITs (even the new ones) over an NIT.

Why?

I have seen Ph.Ds from regular universities who are faculty in IITs. But I have not come across any Ph.D from NITs who are faculty at IITs. (There may be a few; I just have not come across them.)

So if one wants a research career, the atmosphere, expectations and Ph.D scholars availability and quality at an IIT (new ones included) will be more conducive than at an NIT.

s.b. said...

Your comment (I know who r u, but that makes no difference)

"Recently a Professor in a top 5 NIT moved to a new IIT and became an Associate Professor."

You are still confused even after i gave you several lessons on IIT/NIT 5PC/6PC. Uptill now, IIT associate professor was equivalent to NIT professor (both having pre-revised basic starting from 16400). So stop this stupidity immediately. You will very soon find that guy returning to his earlier NIT, as now IIT professor has become to NIT professor.

s.b. said...

"The new IITs have all their faculty with PhDs and publications. The best of the NITs still have faculty w/o Ph.Ds."

But now you bunch of jokers have made NITs so attractive that all with PHDs will move there. No wonder that in 7thPC, u guys ask for MTech as qualification for your APs.

s.b. said...

Research career and environment, my foot. New IITs even dont have their own campuses. They are running either in rented compounds or in existing IITs.

Anonymous said...

Dear MMJha

Joining new or old IIT over NITs is a no brainer.

Eventually all new IITs would have research infrastructure and campuses. What about NITs which have existed for decades but didnt do anything in research till now?

Initially I felt some relevance for SB(I)'s thoughts towards injustice but his continuous noise and approach towards research and academia shows a pathetic attitude. Never join academia if you think that way. Keep up the good work and nobody can deny you promotion. Those who are connected may get promoted as well. But you have to look for yourself and not others. Thats the only way to be happy in life.

Good Luck in joining IIT/IISc as a faculty.

Anonymous said...

@SB

Thank your stars that you in an IIT. With your attitude you would have been thrown out of a place which had a proper tenure procedure.

No one would want a disruptive, uncouth, foul mouthed colleague like you. That is probably the reason you have not been promoted.

Don't you get it? Your colleagues want you out. They have had it with you.

May be the whole aittf committee are making NIT attractive so that money minded foul mouthed faculty like you will leave the IIT system and go to wherever.

(ps -- My only exposure to you is through the way you have written in this blog. That is enough.)

Anonymous said...

SB,
IIT Delhi is actually a hyped up NIT.
I do not think it even meets the
standard of IIT Bombay and IIT KGP.
IIT Madras is as best as the Jadavpur University in research output (cf Current
Science survey of G Prathap et al).
Actually IISc should not have been
bunched with the IITs in this pay thing.
IISc and a few (eg IIT K, KGP and B) should have gotten better scale. Then there should have been a second division of mediocre IITs, IISERs and the new IITs and a few of the NITs. A third division of mediocre NITs where the HOD mechanical think(s) that drones are named after Dronacharya would have completed the set. Like a football league, every 3-5 year, upon evaluation
institutes would have relegated to a lower division or promoted to a higher division. This would have affected pay and other things.. and the competition would have intense and exciting.

Anonymous said...

Please, post your messages related to IITs vs NITs on my blog:

http://unfairpromotionsatiits.blogspot.com/

As I am not able to access this blog from my laptop and I can not sit all the time in my institute computer centre. May be, my IP address and Machine ID has been banned by the blog master.

Anonymous said...

Annon. November 3, 2009 3:54 PM,

I agree with many of your points. For example, in the Civil Eng. Dept. at IITD all of their full Professors (according with their websites) has less than 30 publications in journals. As a quick comparison, the chair of the Civil Eng. Dept. at my university has 109. The Assistant Prof. have between 16-20 plus the same amount of conference papers.

Sb, yesterday I couldn't access this website from my laptop either ;-)

M.

Anonymous said...

Interesting that there are only two S.B.s at IITD who are Asst Profs:
Sorav Bansal @CSE
Suresh Bhalla @Civil

Take your pick :)

s.b. said...

It will be better that you understand my intention in comparing IITs vs. NITs payscales rather than criticising me and my colleagues. It has long-term implications. Next pay commission is due after 6 years. We should be alert from right now, so that no one can make us fool again.

Anonymous said...

Have you stopped blogging prof. Giridhar?

s.b. said...

What blog to be written? It is a matter of shame. NITs direct assistant professors are getting PB4 from day1, however their counterpart in IITs (both with prerevised basic of 12000) will get it after 3 years.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Madras,

If one is a reasonably good faculty at IIT/IISc or some other Indian institute - and if this person's promotion is delayed, or if he/she has a personal reason to move to another city, how easy is it to jump to another institute at a comparable or higher position? I am not at IIT or IISc - I am an assistant professor in the US thinking of returning to India.

Also, I'd like to add that your blog has been more useful to me than talking to many people in India - for understanding how Indian academic institutions work.

K said...

SB (India),
You should see a psychiatrist. You have lost your mental balance after 6th pay commission. Come out of this and concentrate on your job. If you can't just resign and do something good for the country.

Thinking Of Returning said...

Prof. Madras, IITMSriram Dr Kaushal, and other in the know.

I wanted to know if the faculty in the IITs are allowed to start a startup company? In this case can the professor be listed as an employee, or he/she can only be in an advisory role. Please shed some highlight on this issue.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Madras and Sriram,

I will be obliged if you answer a few questions of mine

1. How long does it it take the IIX to issue the offer letter (hard copy and soft copy) after the selection committee interview.

2. How long does a candidate get to accept the offer.

3. Does the offer letter contain information about the startup money, teaching load, travel funds and lab space. If not then how are those commitments usually made? verbal or in writing?

Thanks

Giri@iisc said...

Anon@November 11, 2009 1:49 AM: Faculty do move within IITs and IISc. Around 5% of the faculty in IISc are from IITK. Several of my friends left IITK and joined IITM. In all cases I know, it was for the same position (Asst Prof to Asst Prof., Assoc Prof. to Assoc Prof. etc). IITK is a great place to work but some have moved away to come back to south India. What I am saying is that people do move within IIT/IISc but it is mostly for personal reasons.

Thinking of returning: Yes, IISc does allow faculty to start up companies. Many have already done so. The first work was started in 2002. There is some equity sharing.

Anon@November 13, 2009 7:50 PM: IISc sends the offer letter within a week after the selection committee meeting. We give the candidate 6 months to join, but can be extended to year if justified. Lab space, teaching load etc are pregorative of the department and you can ask the department chairman but IISc will not give anything in writing. Oral committments are normally honored.

Kar: there is no separate evaluation for second time applicants. I applied in Sep 1996 and was rejected. Applied in Nov 1997 and was offered in 1998. In between, I had 3 papers, so it can not be the difference in a total of around 20. I think requirements also change. Anyway, the process itself takes 6 months to year, so why delay in applying.

I can respond only with regard to IISc. People like iitmsriram are more knowledgable regarding the IIT system. They may kindly respond appropriately.

Requests to anon: Please leave a name, initials or something to make it easier for someone to respond. Please.

s.b. said...

It is not only me who is saying about absurdity in 6thPC for IIX for last several weeks, others too pointing out the same now:

http://www.che.iitb.ac.in/online/1bcjusn8

So anony, do u think that people at IITK also need psychiatrist.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof.Giri,
It is proposed that IISER will come under NIT act. Dos it mean that IISERs will be seen as NIT clones in Sciences. Will this bring them at par with NITs which are much below IIT in terms of treatment by govt...

MMJHA said...

see NIT advert.
dear SB you are correct: PhD with 5 years exper will be Associate with PB-4
"
2. Associate Professor
2.1.Ph.D. Degree with First Class at Bachelor’s or Master’s level in the
appropriate branch of Engg., / Tech., and experience of 5 years in teaching,
research and / or industry at the level of Lecturer/Assistant Professor or
equivalent grade, excluding period spent on obtaining the research degree.

klpana said...

Dear Prof.Giri,
It is proposed that IISER will come under NIT act. Dos it mean that IISERs will be seen as NIT clones in Sciences. Will this bring them at par with NITs which are much below IIT in terms of treatment by govt...

Thinking Of Returning said...

Prof. Madras,
Does one have to take permission from the institute to begin a startup? When I was at IIT Delhi, there was a special startup cell, and professors had to submit ideas for startups and only the top were funded. Is this the model at IISc as well? How about starting your own without affiliation to the university?