Thursday, January 26, 2017

Seventh pay commission

Happy Republic Day.

A committee has been formed to implement seventh pay commission in autonomous institutions such as IIT/IISc/NIT. You can enter your thoughts and comments in this thread. This is the current table for regular central government employees.

80 comments:

iitmsriram said...

I have submitted to the committee to consider using the same government pay matrix, mapping our existing AGP / scales of 6000 / 7000 / 8000 / 9000 / 9500 / 10500 / HAG to pay levels 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14 and 15 respectively; and to retain the current higher starting point benefit, the starting cells may be taken as 8, 8, 10, 1, 3, 5 and 1. I have made one other suggestion to the committee, to raise CPDA to 2 lakhs per year. Not that my suggestions will be given any more weightage than anyone else's suggestions, I think I am sort of first off the block.

I do recall we were unhappy with the structural changes that came during 6th pay commission, but I am not sure what structural changes may be required now.

iitmsriram said...

@anon asking about what is percentage increase in pay (in another thread). The general factor used by the government is 2.57, but as DA is already at 132%, the real increase is from 2.32 to 2.57 or about 10%. Of course, there are other things like HRA which will decrease in percentage (from 30 to 24 in the "metro" slab), but the increase in basic will actually result in HRA going up from 30% of old to 24% of new or a little more than double.

Anonymous said...

In regular central governnment salary structure, a higher salary is given to people posted in remote locations such as the north east.

Perhaps something similar can be thought about faculty at non-metro IITs. Lack of facilities such as good healthcare and children's education can be compensated by a higher salary?

Anonymous said...

I was wondering if there is going to be another Goverdhan Mehta like committee that is going to be formed after the UGC committee submits its report? This for the pay revision in IIX.

iitmsriram said...

@anon wondering about Goverdhan Mehta like committee, the formation of the committee headed by former IITB Director Ashok Mishra is what triggered this thread.

@anon thinking of faculty at non-metro IITs, the "higher salary" at remote locations for government servants is in the form of special allowances and currently, all those allowances are given to IIX faculty also, on par with other government servants posted at the same location. Basically, faculty (and non-teaching staff) at IIX at town abcd will get same allowances as any other government servant posted to town abcd. I suspect your suggestion is to not go by this, but compare IIX at town abcd vs IIX at Delhi / Mumbai / Chennai and provide some compensatory allowance that is not available to other government employees posted to town abcd; this will be a hard sell. All IIXs have their own schools and hospitals / medical schemes, it would be difficult to argue for extra allowances for the same, especially when existing government rules have provision to support schooling elsewhere etc.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram:

Will there also be an increase in the salary of an INSPIRE faculty with the implementation of the 7th pay commission recommendations? Their salary is supposedly fixed (lump sum of 80,000 Rs. with 3.3 yearly increments) but then, their salary is apparently pegged 'equivalent to the salary of an IIT Assistant Professor' as per the award letter.

Anonymous said...

Is there a way of linking the salary to productivity by assessing a person's research/teaching/admin output? However subjective decisions like this are always prone to corruption.
Some IITs have already instituted awards for research and teaching - perhaps something like this can be made common across all IIX?

One thing that sometimes irks me is that a highly unproductive and lazy professor also earns the same as I do.

Anonymous said...

"a highly unproductive and lazy professor also earns the same as I do."

It is not correct to call the blog host as lazy and unproductive.

If you are good, you will get Bhatnagar, fellowships such as JC Bose/Swarnajayanthi etc. and you will earn several lakhs more than your colleagues.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram: Are there any perks for new recruits at IITM? For instance, IITB has the J.R. Issac Assistant Chair Professor, IITK gives a significant top-up to the salary.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram: Are there any perks for new recruits at IITM? For instance, IITB has the J.R. Issac Assistant Chair Professor, IITK gives a significant top-up to the salary.

Anonymous said...

"It is not correct to call the blog host as lazy and unproductive. " I don't know what to make of this statement - perhaps sarcasm? Hard for me to detect.

"...Bhatnagar, fellowships such as JC Bose/Swarnajayanthi etc..."
1) Shouldn't it be preferable that there is a tiered system of performance based incentive rather than huge jumps?
2) What about excellence in teaching and administration? I regularly hear from the deans etc. that IITs like to focus a lot on teaching but almost all promotions and most awards seem to be based on research output.

iitmsriram said...

@anon asking about perks for new recruits, IITM gives all new recruits 10K per month top up till they reach PB4 grade. This is designed so that (except under some relatively rare conditions), the salary never decreases like it will when the top up is x amount for 3 years - the 4th year salary will be significantly lower.

@anon wondering about linking salary to performance, the 6th pay commission provided for a performance related incentive scheme PRIS. IITs were asked to submit a proposal which was promptly shelved. This would have provided for upto 30% higher pay for top performers.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram Are there Asst. Professors recruited by IITM directly at PB4 level?

iitmsriram said...

@anon, yes. If the candidate fulfils the eligibility requirements for PB4, IITM is directly offering PB4.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram and the eligibility requirement I assume is 3 years of Asst. Professor (which includes 3 years of teaching courses)?

iitmsriram said...

@anon, eligibility for PB4 is 3 years as regular (8000 AGP or equivalent) assistant professor. Whether a particular stint is eligible to be counted is decided by the selection committee.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

Why should one look at this matrix at all? The committee has intelligent people. They can think afresh from first principles about salaries at IIXs.

Unfortunately, I have serious doubts if this would happen. Even when given sufficiently well defined but open-ended terms of reference, committees instead ask for more structure and guidelines to aid their thinking, in effect abdicating their 'dharma' as academicians, which is to apply their own damn minds and stand firmly by what can be backed by reason. Even important award selection committees don't apply discretion or use power of persuasion and communication. They instead slavishly try to reduce their contribution to something of a mechanical bean-counting/pattern-matching nature.

I would say we trash this matrix altogether and begin by asking basic questions:
- what does evidence say about the worth of a faculty?
- what frameworks are available to assess this worth? what is the right economic model, etc?
- is the worth a function of age/seniority? or is it independent of seniority? is it a function of teaching? of research? as measured by? as not measured by?

iitmsriram said...

@Ankur says "They can think afresh from first principles about salaries at IIXs".

This can be done if hiring / firing / annual increments / initial salary setting etc are also done "from first principles", I don't see how we can do one without the other and @Ankur puts these as the "basic questions". This would further require management (administrators) to be hired separately with their own performance benchmarks. This has been done in PSU's, to some extent at least. Is the faculty body ready for this? Except some of the IIM's, the rest of the IIX institutions are largely dependant on government grants to meet the expenditures, this is unlike the PSU's where such dependence may not be there. Will the government be willing to adapt this model and still continue to give grants as in the past?

In any case, the mandate of the committee states "It would be necessary to ensure that the final package of benefits proposed to be extended to the employees of these Autonomous Organisations etc. is not more beneficial than that admissible to the corresponding categories of the Central Government employees". That is not very open ended.

Anonymous said...

Modi is opening seven centers of excellence. Here the director and professors can get paid whatever they want. They do not need to follow governmental norms in terms of purchase or salary.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

@iitmsriram --

-- what are the "corresponding categories" of the Central Government employees? these are undefined, and probably no corresponding category exists.

-- is assessing "readiness" of the faculty body part of the mandate of the committee? if so, does their report carry a scientific assessment of this?

-- "will the government be willing to adapt": is thinking about this also part of the mandate?

I can't see why the committee cant take a cold and rational stand and put it on record, when it has been appointed to do so. It is not the committee's job to second guess anybody's thinking.

I am convinced that if academicians in India act as academicians in the true sense of the word, a lot of good would happen. Perhaps the govt will trust us more. Currently it does not trust us much because it thinks we are part-politicians in the guise of academicians.

iitmsriram said...

Ashok Mishra committee is meeting on Tuesday 14th. If someone has suggestions, I can pass it along for the committee to consider. I will be passing along Ankur's suggestion about "thinking afresh from first principles", though I have my doubts about how much traction it will find.

Anonymous said...

One can have a few allowances like a.) 9 lacs CPDA available as one block or multiple blocks over 3 year period, b.) Science/engineering magazine allowance (atleast 2 magazines per month), c.) better health insurance for family, d.) Phone/internet allowance upto 2500 p.m
,e.) children education allowance upto Rs. 40-50 K (per child) per year.

iitmsriram said...

Some comments on anon's proposals.

CPDA is likely to be proposed as going to 6 lakhs for first 3 year slab and then 8 lakhs for next slab etc.

The report will also recommend some medical coverage along lines of CGHS. Actual coverage is done by individual institutions, unlikely that this common committee will recommend specifics. For example, IITM medical coverage is 1.5 lakhs for family paid for by the Institute and option to get additional cover of upto 4 lakhs by employee paying (currently about 18K), plus corporate buffer etc. I believe this is good coverage, not sure what is expected by way of "better".

Since IITs provide unlimited un-billed net connections in the office and at home, not sure how one can justify an allowance for this. And, the monthly phone bill for IITM as a whole is approximately Rs. 500 per faculty member (total bill divided by total number of faculty members). Unless this is suggested as a ruse to get more money, I can't see how this can be justified.

How does one justify higher children's education allowance than what is given to other government employees?

Anonymous said...

Please do not increase CPDA. Already many faculty attend useless conferences abroad in Dubai etc. just so that they can spend the CPDA money. Let there be a competetive scheme to obtain travel money. Three years back, CSA pooled their CPDA money and bought 100 pen drives and donated it to scientific staff. I am not joking. Ask Prof. Giri.

IISc does not provide internet at home. We have to pay 1500 to BSNL to get unlimited internet (40 GB) or so. Then you have to add our mobile bills and landline bills. Currently IISc pays a maximum of 1000.

Saptarshi Basu said...

Yes I am from IISc and hence the internet+phone combo should be increased to Rs. 3000 in lieue of free internet+phone. CGHS of 1.5 lacs+4 lacs is grossly inadequate. I think ISRO and others get way more than that. So for IIXs, this should be atleast 10-15 lacs per family.

Anonymous said...

It's really sad that because of few people abusing the incentives given to them, others have to suffer. But I agree that many faculties do engage in such unethical practices.

@Prof. Sriram
Can you suggest the committee that CPDA allowance should be increased. A mechanism might be that beyond a fixed threshold (say 3 lacs) additional CPDA money should allocated in proportion to the sponsored research project money a faculty brings to his/her institute and department?

iitmsriram said...

@SaptarshiBasu, ISRO etc do not have insurance (they are under own hospital / reimbursement plan). Is there a rationale behind asking for 10 - 15 lakhs per family per year coverage? IITM coverage is basic 1.5 lakhs + corporate buffer 3 lakhs, employees can pay and add on 4 lakhs coverage on top of this to get 8.5 lakhs coverage. I am familiar with IITM claims, there may be at most 1 claim every year that exceeds this. Why coverage of 10 to 15 lakhs?

iitmsriram said...

@anon states "faculty attend useless conferences abroad in Dubai etc." Why allow this? If faculty want to attend conferences organised by WASET, say, admin can simply refuse. This is similar to permitting / encouraging faculty members to publish in junk (predatory) journals. Why put up with it / allow it?

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Sriram,

Would I be correct in assuming that the pay revision would more or less follow the general theme of 7CPC recommendations for the Central Govt Employees? My pay was revised after Jan 2016. According to 7CPC recommendations, there is an option provided for employees to delay their shifting to the new pay (so that they can get benefited). I hope such provisions will be provided for IIX faculty as well.

iitmsriram said...

@anon, it is a broad assumption that the Ashok Mishra committee will recommend pay revision for CFTI faculty along the general lines of the 7th CPC. Some, like @ankur here, have suggested that the committee should take a different approach, don't know if the committee will go that way. I believe the option to switch over to new scales on 1.1.2016 or at later date will be given, just like it is given to other government employees.

iitmsriram said...

Forgot to add, faculty associations have submitted inputs to the Ashok Mishra committee. IITK, for example, has suggested that directors be stepped up to the level of cabinet secretary, from their current standing equivalent to secretary to government of India (one scale lower than cabinet secretary); the suggestion continues down the line with HAG level professors to be elevated to the level of what is now IIT Director, associate professors to be elevated to what is currently HAG professor and so on.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

I have two more suggestions: Probably it is an institute-level matter to be dealt with individually by each institute. Faculty should be allowed to choose their productivity mix -- a% teaching, b% research, c% admin, from some set combinations of a,b,c. The minimum level for qualifying for associate or prof or HAG should be different for faculty from different productivity mixes. Accordingly, the pay could also differ.

A prerequisite for this is first figuring out what the value various combinations of a,b,c are to the institute and use salary as a way for the institute to signal this value to its employees. Currently we deluding ourselves into thinking that the value is independent of a,b,c.

Second suggestion: find a way to make IIX faculty/students/staff institute employees instead of govt employees. Over time phase out this grand unified centralized anachronistic pay determining exercise and replace it with one at the institute levels.

Anonymous said...

Ankur, do not waste your time with these suggestions. Nothing of these will happen. What will happen is as follows:

1. mapping our existing AGP / scales of 6000 / 7000 / 8000 / 9000 / 9500 / 10500 / HAG to pay levels 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14 and 15 respectively;

And then double existing benefits such as

2. Increase telephone bill reimbursement to 2000 from 1000
3. Increase money for people holding two fellowshoips to 30000 from 15000
4. Increase CPDA to 2 lakhs from 1 lakh

Medical coverage is institution based and nothing will happen.

Nothing else will happen. Mark my words.

IISc Prof Giri's friend

Ankur Kulkarni said...

I am almost certain that none of my suggestions will be followed. However, I do not make them I will be making the same mistake as I was above accusing committees of making - i.e., instead of applying their minds on the task at hand, applying it on thinking of what the government will think.

Doubling existing benefits seems okay, but it would be much better if it was backed by analysis and logical reasoning.

iitmsriram said...

@Giri's friend is making good predictions. Telephone bills is seen as a local issue and the committee has not discussed it so far. Fellowship increase as noted was discussed. CPDA suggestion is likely to be 6 lakhs for 3 years going up to 8 lakhs / 10 lakhs for successive blocks based on assessment. Committee is most likely to make some suggestion on medical coverage, but it may not be mandatory. At least two IITs have expressed great difficulty with their current schemes and have requested the committee to come up with some recommendation. The committee is also most likely to make some recommendation to tackle the income tax on deemed rent perk issue.

@Giri's friend also appears to be pessimistic about anything else changing. Short of broad structural changes as suggested by @ankur, I believe the committee will look seriously at any other issues. Do you have any such suggestions, @Giri's friend?

The committee does not appear to believe in broad structural changes as suggested by @ankur.

Anonymous said...

Sriram: What about the payscale mapping. What is the committee's view on that. Income tax on perks is a nonsense action to begin with, hope the comm. eradicates the same.

Anonymous said...

Pay scale mapping will be straightforward with the suggestion above.

The doubling of benefits is just based on logic that DA is now more than 100%. Benefits such as fellowships, CPDA etc. are to be doubled. Telephone is unique to IISc and 2000 may be recommended for IISc. Medical insurance in IISc is just 50000 per family per year. But additional insurance of 5 lakhs is available. But it is also a local issue.

People like Giri who do very well have no shortage of money either through grants or personal money from fellowships or JC Bose. With Bhatnagar award winners likely to get 10-15 lakhs in contingency per year and JC Bose also having 15 lakhs in contingency, people will get 30 lakhs per year in contingency. They do not need CPDA. If things like CPDA are also based on assessment, they will get the maximum slab. Then having two fellowships also gives personal money. Best is to have all benefits to be the same for everyone.

There is no pessissm regarding this. Benefits from institutes should be similar. Outside benefits from DST, CSIR etc. are always obtained by deserving scientists.

The perk tax is unique to a few institutes and is based on income tax rule. It is not within the purview of the committee. If the comm. eradicates this tax, income tax office should take them to court. they can not violate the law of the land. Sometimes it is an interpretation of the IT commissioner but IISc can not claim to be a charity officially and also a government institution. They can not have it both ways. Further, IISc has not been enacted by the parliment unlike IITs or IISERs or NIT.Either IISc pays this tax from their kitty or keeps quiet.

iitmsriram said...

@anon, my responses as below.

Medical benefits is not entirely local issue. Institutions are bound to provide some kind of support. At the IITs, for example, the statutes (annexure AA) binds the institute to provide medical assistance for serving employees. However, this support may become open ended, so the institutes have a vested interest to come up with a scheme so that expenditure is controlled. Going for medical insurance is one way to control the expenditure. Employees have to push to ensure that the coverage offered is meaningful and sufficient. The Ashok Mishra committee is likely to make a recommendation that institutions continue with reimbursement model or go for insurance with some prescribed cover or some prescribed cost contribution from the institute.

Two academy fellow ship cannot be availed along with Bhatnagar fellowship, just as a point of information.

Perk tax is not the law, it is an administrative rule. There is some history behind it. Some income tax assessing officers decided that employees of universities, autonomous institutions etc are not government and issued income tax demands. These were appealed by institutions and employees and both tax tribunals and courts ruled in favour of the employees. In the case of PSU's, the ruling was in favour of the taxman. Instead of accepting this, the IT department issued a clarification to the existing rule 3(1), adding a note that employees of PSU's, Universities, autonomous institutions etc will not be considered government employees for the purpose of this rule. By the way, the institution does not pay this tax, it is paid as income tax by the individuals. Don't know about IISc, but CFTI's can definitely ask to be included under the definition of government for the purpose of this rule. The committee does not have the power to annul the income tax. But, if the pay package is approved along with this provision, this will stand and the tax man will not be able to challenge it in court. The condition likely to be set is that the accommodation should be similar in facilities to standard government housing and the license fees, allotment eligibility etc should be same as standard government rules.

Giri@iisc said...

"committee is likely to make a recommendation that institutions continue with reimbursement model or go for insurance with some prescribed cover"

Currently, IISc provides 50000 coverage for the family and one can buy an additional 7 lakhs as coverage by paying extra.

"Two academy fellow ship cannot be availed along with Bhatnagar fellowship, just as a point of information."

That's correct but Bhatnagar is apparently going to be changed to 10 lakhs per year as contingency instead of 15000 pm as fellowship. Therefore, one can avail both as discussed by my "friend"

"Don't know about IISc, but CFTI's can definitely ask to be included under the definition of government for the purpose of this rule. "

But IISc is not registered under the act of Parliament and can not be considered as a government institution. I was extensively involved in this and met the IT commissioner on this. Of course, it can change if the interpretation by the assessing officer changes.

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

If Perks related taxes continue , more people will leave campus housing. Right now, I pay something like 1 lac per year extra as taxes and I forego my HRA. This puts my total loss to a very high value. After 7th pay commission, HRA is supposed to go up and so will the perks and so will be the tax. Hence one may end up paying (or loosing) close to 40-60 K p.m for institute housing. Now if the housing is like IITG, maybe one can put an argument that maybe it is worth but not for IISc housing. Remote IIT employees have to bite the bullet since there maybe nothing outside. However Bangalore, Madras, Bombay, Delhi the story maybe different.

also medical insurance kind of sucks at IISc though technically you can get upto 7 lacs coverage. However like dirac delta, the insurance drops to zero moment you set foot outside bangalore.

Anonymous said...

"February 16, 2017 at 3:25 PM"

"If Perks related taxes continue , more people will leave campus housing."

IISc is not listed as institute of national importance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Institutes_of_National_Importance

Till it is not listed there and IISc does not still claim to be a charity organization, the perk related taxes will continue. You should first understand the amount of work done in the previous administration to make this happen and meeting the IT officials. This was completely dropped by the current administration. But this is understandable considering the directors and deputy director, all (?) divisional chairmen stay outside the campus. They are not interested in getting a waiver. Ask them how many times they have approached the IT officials for the waiver or MHRD to get it listed as INI. No wonder the tax tribunal ruled against IISc.

IISc is the only institution (unlike IITs/NITs) where the majority of administration including director lives outside the campus.


Unknown said...

Forgive my ignorance, what is perk tax?
Is it tax on institute provided housing (treated as a perk?)

Sridhar

iitmsriram said...

@unknown, yes, this is about tax on institute provided housing treated as a perk. Before 2013, IIX employees were treated as government employees for this purpose. For government employees, standard license fee - amount actually recovered from employee is taken as the value of the perk. As the recovery amount is usually same as the standard license fee, the value of the perk is zero and there is no tax liability. In 2013, the annual income tax circular added a note that employees of autonomous institutions, universities etc would not be considered as government employees for this purpose of housing perk. That means, the value is taken as 15% of salary in metros minus whatever employee paid as license fee and this value is subject to income tax. For someone getting monthly salary of 1 lakh and paying Rs. 1000 as license fee, this adds 14K to taxable income. If the income tax bracket is 30%, staying in quarters will add 30% of 14K or Rs. 4200 to income tax.

Anonymous said...

you have not defined salary properly..it is not just basic or DA.

As an example, Prof. Giri earns

200000 as basic + DA
15000 from Bhatnagar
25000 from JC bose
100000 from Consultancy
10000 from GATE/KVPY exams etc. (average over a month)

Now the total salary is 3.5 lakhs per month. It is 15% from this !

iitmsriram said...

@anon, I have clearly stated "someone getting salary of 1 lakh", as an example, as the answer was oriented towards someone not familiar with the issue, presumably someone near the entry level (in which case this is a good number). You are free to use any example you want.

If we want to nit pick, I can do the same. I am sure Prof. Giri is not getting 200000 per month as basic + DA. DA from 1.1.2017 has not been announced, with previous DA, the stagnation point is Rs. 183280. And so on. But yes, point taken, the 15% is reckoned on all items considered under the head salary.

Giri@iisc said...

anon@February 17, 2017 at 2:58 PM:

I do not get 200000 as basic + DA. Neither does our director !

I do not get 100000 from consultancy.

I do not know whether honorarium under gate is counted under salary or income from other sources as this is a honorarium. I have to check.

Your point is well taken though..15% is based on all items under salary.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram Giri@iisc
Thanks for the open discussion of faculty compensation in India. I have interviewed at a few places in India recently and found the visits mutually exciting. I have PhD + 3 year postdoc + 3 year non-tenure faculty/staff scientist experience. During the junior faculty years, I have secured medium sized grants, taught a course, participated in outreach + published my research. I am wondering if someone in my situation is eligible for entry as tenure-track faculty at IISc directly in PB-4?

@iitmsriram already pointed out that selection committee assesses if a particular stint counts. My question is whether the institutes have discretion to offer tenure-track faculty (Assistant professor) entry in PB-4?

Anonymous said...

" IITs were asked to submit a proposal which was promptly shelved. This would have provided for upto 30% higher pay for top performers."

Well, JC Bose will go up to 35-40 K and two fellowships to 30 K. Thus, one gets 70 K, which is roughly 35% higher pay than others. Youngsters can get Swarnajayanthi and two fellowships.

IISc does not want an incentive system in house because that will lead to headaches to administration. Recently, in IISc, the admin wanted to promote 14 people from professor to HAG scale. Then they decided that 13 will be based on seniority and one will be "out of turn" based on merit. And they gave it to the blog host. Questions like this were asked "What does Giri do? He teaches more than everyone else, publishes and gets cited more than many of us, serves in committees..but how does it mean he is better than me?"

Best is to NOT provide any incentive at the institutional level. If decisions are made at DST, CSIR or some other agency, one can throw up their hands and say "Of course, I know you are better than him but what can I do ? It was decided by some stupid committee instituted in DST. Of course, one should NOT ask "Did you not serve on the committee?" :-)


IISc Prof Giri's friend

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MS said...

@Prof Sriram:
"All IIXs have their own schools and hospitals / medical schemes"
"the "higher salary" at remote locations for government servants is in the form of special allowances and currently, all those allowances are given to IIX faculty also, on par with other government servants posted at the same location"

I am a faculty at New IIX and with all respect I will like to mention few things.

This IIX does not has its own school.
The school bus charges are half of my transport allowance
and the school fees is a factor of 3 of the GoI allowance.

As for hospital it has a clinic with good for nothing part time doctors who do not
prescribe medicines beyond the minuscule inventory to avoid questions.
They will refer to city hospital for which you will probably spend more in transportation
then in medicine.

Now I should not complain about this because we are still in our temporary campus
which is just 10 kms from city with public transport available.
In couple of months we will move to our "permanent campus" which will again have no hospital or school.
And its only 25 kms with no public transport.

PS: All GoI offices are in the city.
PPS:No we do not have top ups.

Anonymous said...

I am an Asst Prof on PB3 at IISc and some simple questions.

(i) When will I receive the new pay?
(ii) How much will I get as per the new pay commission including HRA/TA, etc (I just need one number as 1.XX lakhs)?
(iii) Also, how much arrears am I supposed to receive and when?

Anonymous said...

"I am an Asst Prof on PB3 at IISc and some simple questions...I just need one number as 1.XX lakhs"

Typical arrogant iisc prof. why cant they do the simple math that a 10 year old understand? Well, why do the math when someone else like Giri or Sriram will do it for you !

Anonymous said...

Ha ha..good one at above. For the record, I am a typical iisc prof (in PB3) and I could do the mathematics.

Anonymous said...

what was the recommendations made by the Misra committee

iitmsriram said...

@anon wondering about pay review committee, the Ashok Mishra committee has not yet submitted its recommendations. It had one meeting last week and next one is scheduled for 20 March. The committee has asked for one month extension (till end of March) to submit its report.

Ordinary Person said...

@ Prof. Sriram and others who are aware of the developments of the committee.

I think that at the time of implementation of 6th pay commission, the 3-year on-contract Assistant Professor position was invented.
Some time last year there was discussion on introducing tenure in IITs. Do you think it can/ should be introduced by the committee now? https://giridharmadras.blogspot.in/2015/12/tenure.html

Anonymous said...

Please do not introduce tenure. If you introduce tenure, good faculty like Prof. Giri will not get tenure because they will be denied tenure by the department itself. It will lead to lot of insecurity also and you have to be a slave to the chairman, director, and so on.

Look at IIT Gandhinagar..such IITs have two years probation..no faculty even wants to talk about the weather because it may offend the director and they will lose their job

iitmsriram said...

IISc has already introduced tenure. Ashok Mishra committee is not looking at tenure. IIT council has already informed individual IITs that they may introduce tenure system if they want through their BoG.

@Ordinary Person, during the 5th pay commission, the AP position (12000 scale) qualification was PhD and three years experience. The position for fresh PhD's was supposed to be lecturer (10000 scale of that time), but this did not happen. IITs counted three years experience as the research experience as GRA / GTA which many people had while doing PhD. So, the empire struck back. In 6th pay commission, the AP position specified 3 years experience excluding the experience gained while pursuing the degree. But instead of just the 10000 scale (7000 AGP), it added the 8000 scale (6000 AGP) also in the pattern 2 + 1 years. The administrative apparatus was very happy with this as the staring point became the same as for IAS (in some equivalent way) as 5400 GP / 6000 AGP. But this basically forced a pattern of 1 + 2 years "on contract" before becoming "regular" AP and faculty were not happy with this. The Ashok Mishra committee is trying to fix this by specifying a unified 3 year block (not tenure) titled AP grade 1. Once the recruit has 3 years experience, there will be an assessment and movement to level 12 to become AP grade 2. After 3 years, AP grade 2 will move to level 13 and also become eligible for promotion to Asso Prof level 13A. The push now is to fix AP grade 1 at level 11, counter pressure is to place at level 10. Let us see how it plays out.

Vijay Desai said...

Now that new fiscal year is on the verge, hope the Government will not delay any further in implementing the VII Pay commission to all the CFTI's.

desainitk

Anonymous said...

Typical IIT/NIT professors..always thinking about pay commissions and money. No work is required.

Report will be submitted on 31 March and the government has to implement it in one day. Wish these professor correct a manuscript in one day or even publish manuscripts in top journals in one year.

Unknown said...

We at NITK and most of NITs are in AGP 8000 or 7000 even after 10 to 15 yrs of post Ph.D experience/service in CFTI with JSPS, Humbhold post doc, project, jounal papers. However, 6th CPC allowed faculty without Ph.D as Associate. Can this committee do something to give MOKSHA to these Asst profs.

Unknown said...

Unless 6th CPC anomalies r corrected u can not simply multiply by 2.57 or fix level.

iitmsriram said...

@unkonwn, anomalies cannot be corrected unless they are enunciated properly. Faculty without PhD not becoming associate professors is not an anomaly, it is a result of adoption of flexi cadre. One can't usually have it both ways. IITs also adopted this "no associate professor without PhD" at the time of the 4th pay commission. All non-PhD faculty were told to get PhD or retire as assistant professors. Most got PhDs and got promoted, a few retired as assistant professors. That is the price to pay for upgraded scales. NITs are also institutions of national importance, the faculty get same scales as in IITs under flexi cadre. So, same rules should apply - get PhD or retire as assistant professor. To make things worse, NITs have adopted recruitment rules (mostly now stayed by courts) that specify number of papers, number of PhDs to be graduated, number of short term courses to be conducted etc etc as minimum eligibility conditions. This was brought to the attention of the Ashok Mishra committee, but the committee has declined to get into recruitment rules of individual NITs as being outside the scope of the pay review.

Anonymous said...

Thanks @iitmsriram and @giri for initiating discussion. Regarding CPDA, we at NITs found it very useful particularly for young faculty (where there is no seed grant to do any research etc), but its so happened that MHRD noticed few deviations in use. It was mostly few faculty purchased items not specified in the grant, but now the grant is blocked for research interaction/collaboration visits etc. Pls specify exactly the terms and conditions of CPDA so that there can be no violation. Also, pls include laptop for faculty once in 2 block period, (since it is not provided by the institute like in pvt institute), research interaction/collaboration visits (specify what output is expected like publications). purchase any item related to research (like consumables, characterization/testing charges to other labs). Incentives for research publications(to encourage young faculty). There may be some fund to provide incentives for Ph.D students also for publications (it worked well in Singapore and Malaysia to get QS ranking).

Anonymous said...

Sir, I think you have mistaken it. What I said was Lecturers of 5th CPC without Ph.D were fixed as Associate Professors(AGP 9000) in 6th CPC based on number of yrs of service etc. Secondly, all those 6th CPC Assistant Profs(AGP 6000,7000) with Ph.D., post doc etc are blocked since 2006 till today without promotion to PB4. We spent 3 yrs in 6000 AGP, 4 years in 7000 AGP(we have post Ph.D 10 yrs experience at NIT only, excluding outside post doc) and still in PB3 basic 15,900/. How can we account for 10 yrs post Ph.D service? Is it gone? can 7cpc do something to find our basic as on Jan1,2016?

Anonymous said...

Sir, regarding recruitment rules, the MHRD letter says that 7CPC revised pay comes with recruitment rules and qualification etc-thanks

iitmsriram said...

@anon, what MHRD letter?

The only thing I can find is the appointment of the Ashok Mishra committee, which mentions "... it has been decided that the revised pay scales as per the Pay Matrix ... as well as principle of pay fixation ... may be extended to the employees of such organisations. However, it shall also not be made automatically applicable to the employees of Autonomous Organisations but to be considered by the Administrative Ministry for its justification based on functional considerations, recruitment qualifications as well as the applicable pre-revised pay scales".

And, "Accordingly the Ministry of Human Resource Development (D/o Higher Education) has constituted a Pay Review committee for all Centrally Funded Technical Institutions and the composition of the same is as under:- ... The committee will submit its recommendation ...".

As the previous similar committees had mentioned qualifications, I believe this committee will also do that but not venture beyond that (into recruitment rules).

Also, CPDA norms for utilisation are not set centrally, only the broad guidelines are. I don't believe the committee sees any need to change the broad guidelines. (personal opinion) If some institutions permitted collaboration visits under CPDA, that is an extension beyond the stated purpose. The MHRD description for CPDA is clear and mentions only conferences "... to meet the expenses for participating in both national and international conferences ..."

Anonymous said...

Thank you sir, you are right. I was referring only to ",,,,,,, based on functional considerations, recruitment qualifications as well as the applicable pre-revised pay scales".

Sir, would it be possible to mention in your report that "the pay and AGP as on 1st Jan 2016 as per 4-tier norm to be multiplied by the factor ( is it 2.57?) to get the new pay/level in 7CPC" because the pay/AGP as on 1st Jan 2016 is critical, which will be multiplied by a factor. As of now, in NITs, the pay/AGP on that date is not according to flexible(4-tier), neither 3 tier (UGC/college) considering qualification and service criteria. Therefore,term "4-tier" is important.

What about those faculty who do not qualify for 4-tier in NIT, for instance a professor? what is his pay level compare to professor of 10500 AGP?
what about Assistant prof of AGP 7000(which is contractual position),if he/she did not qualify for 8000 AGP? will he be fired or continue in the same level?
In which level, existing ASSOCIATE professors WITHOUT Ph.D (presently they are in AGP 9000) will be placed? what is their new designation?
LEVEL 13 in pay matrix is which designation, ASSISTANT PROF or ASSOCIATE PROF?

These situations may not exist in IIT but in NITs.

Thanks again

iitmsriram said...

@(presumably from NIT)anon, I think I got your point. In the old scheme, NITs had upgraded scales compared to universities under three tier fixed cadre scheme and IITs had further upgraded scales under the four tier flexi-cadre scheme. Now, NITs are shifting to four tier flexi-cadre scheme, but there are a lots of (almost all?) faculty members at NITs who are having scales under the old scheme. What is to become of them? Yes, eventually, they will all move to four tier flexi-cadre but what in the meantime? I believe that all of these colleagues would have received the upgraded scales (higher entry points, increments) under three tier scheme and it would be reasonable to simply map them into the university scales? The factor may not be 2.57, but whatever is applied to that particular pay level.

I believe the issue of associate professors in 9000 AGP is already addressed; during shift to flex-cadre, it has been indicated that they will remain in 9000 AGP with title of associate professor, but will have to apply against advertisement and be recruited afresh to associate professor to get 9500 AGP (correct me if I am wrong on this). If they do not have PhD, they will have to retire as associate professor in 9000 grade / level 13. If they have PhD, they can shift to flexi-cadre 9500 grade / level 13A by applying against advertisement. I don't agree with the idea to move them to flex-cadre automatically. If we strictly apply shift to flex-cadre, above candidates will get titularly demoted to assistant professor, which is also not good. Of course, we don't know what will happen; there will be lobbying and this is something NITs are good at, much better than IITs :-)

Anonymous said...

Sir you are correct. Some NITs moved to flexible cadre (4-tier) already but due to this lobby, Assistant professors are trapped in AGP 7000/8000, not moved/selected for Associate even if they have 10 yrs post Ph.D service, research credentials, projects, foreign post doc etc, citinging technical problem. Technical problem is that we were never moved to 8000 AGP and they say that you have to complete that and cannot jump AGP. However, now newly recruited Assistant profs and Associate profs are getting higher entry pay of 4-tier (30K+8k for Asst prof and 43K+9.5K for Assoc). Nobody is bothered about us because of lower designation and number. Ideally as per 4-tier, we shall be fixed at 30000+8000 after 3 years of post ph.D experience (post doc/teaching). After 3 years in 80000 we should be selected to Assoc 9500 AGP subjected to meeting credentials of 4 tier (which we have). The starting date of fixation shall be 1st Jan 2006 because in 6th pay implementation NITs were told to adopt flexi cadre through various MHRD orders. The main issue is that in flexi cadre implementation, some well performing junior faculty will take over seniors. Hence the lobby is defeating it. We would be thankful if you could address this issue, where ever is possible in your report. It is
directly related to the pay on 1st Jan2016, which will be multiplied to get 7 cpc pay.

Regarding faculty at AGP 9000 (without Ph.D), they are currently designated as Associate prof in NITs/colleges/UGC. but I think in IIT it is Assistant prof only. Hence i referred it.
Thank you sir

Anonymous said...

I am just wondering why NIT professors have so many grievances yet continue to work there. Are there not better places to work ? Maybe because in NIT, it is a government job and one does not need to work??

Anonymous said...

Let me be blunt here and just point out that the renumeratuon vs work output ratio of 'most' NITs far exceeds the IITs faculties. NITs have practically zero research output, they are not doing much good with the teaching either. I have first hand experience of incompetance of NIT faculties, especially old professors. Hopefully, new faculties will change this trend. Problem is that every instituition develops a culture over the time and it's much easier to get molded in that culture that to change it. This is the prime reason government decided to set up new IITs that coverting NITs into IITs.
People in IITs getting same pay as other centrally funded institute is not fair. In my opinion it should be based on research, teaching output.

Fac.iit said...

Recommendations of All India IIT Faculty federation.

Designation Scale Minimum Pay (Rs.)
AP (on Contract) Level 13 1,18,500
Assistant Professor Level 14 1,44,200
Associate Professor Level 15 1,82,200
Professor + HAG Level 16 2,05,400

Other points for consideration at the IIT Council
a. To consider children of IIT faculty for admission in State Govt run colleges where the IIT is located
b. A performance evaluation system of HoDs and Deans on the lines of faculty
evaluation c. To allow faculty to travel on non-Air India in India and abroad when direct connections are not available
d. To introduce PRIS (Organization) on the basis on MHRD ranking.

There was one line written "there was agreement on the CPDA and Medical Insurance for serving and retired Faculty".
What is that agreed CPDA?

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Your blunt comments and first hand info are correct only. In NITs Profs are busy taking 2-3 theory, 1 lab every day (may be syllabus/teaching quality is still not upto mark), which is quite large work load compared to IIT, as I checked with my friends mostly they are taking half a course. Huge shortage of faculty, increase of students intake, lack of facility (only last 4 yrs NITs got some funding), all have contributed to it, but I feel some NITs did well and secured NIRF ranking also. Main reason, is lack of good leadership,particularly director, now i think no good academicians are coming as directors. In the past we got profs from IITs as directors, which should have been continued, but not happening. Regarding salary, IITs feel NITs are paid more, NITs feel that college and polytechnic teachers are paid more. My only wish is let good people come forward and lead.

iitmsriram said...

Saw the AIIITFF recommendations. Not sure how we justify this kind of pay upgrades. When rest of government is using default upgrade factor of 2.57 with some cadres going up to 2.72, how do we justify upgrade factors in the range of 3.5 to 3.8? Or is this some kind of bargaining tactic - ask for 3.5 and settle for something lower?

Ankur Kulkarni said...

If one thinks clearly from fundamentals, one will know whether it can be justified and how. The current approach is scientifically so adhoc that I don't think you will be able to rigorously justify anything.

Anonymous said...

I think they are looking at PB-4 as the starting pay band for the faculties at IITs. Whereas every now and then I am seeing that govt. is pushing to make faculty posts at IIX attractive to young aspirants in order to fight faculty crunch, to look back on the same old pay structure will surely be a step backward. I don't know about govt. sectors, but as autonomous intitutes IITs may place a strong case for themselves, especially in a time when they are looking abroad to even fetch foreign faculties.

Dr. Sashikumaar Ganesan said...

Here is the discrepancy in 7PC matrix during promotion/increment, please correct me if I am wrong.

Consider the following scale

As on Jan 2016 (Basic + AGP) :: 38800+9000 = 47800*2.57=1,22,846
Mapping at the matrix in level 13 :: 1,25,800 ( >=1,22,846 )

Hence, the basic salary as on 1st Jan 2016 : 1,25,800

CASE A:
Suppose the faculty gets a promotion on 1st June 2016 (one increment in the same level, and then map to the next level), that is,
Salary from 1st June 2016 (increased to 1,29,600 and mapped to level 13A) :: 1,31,100
Salary in Jul'16 (No increment, min. 6 months to be in the slab to get increment) :: 1,31,100
Salary from 1st Jan (new rule on increment, either in Jan/Jul) :: 1,35,000

CASE B:
Suppose the same faculty gets a promotion on 1st Aug 2016:
Salary in Jul'16 (regular increment ) :: 1,29,600
Salary from 1st Aug 2016 (increased to 1,33,500 and mapped to level 13A) :: 1,35,000

Case B gets salary of 1.35K from Aug'16, whereas Case A will reach this salary only in Jan'17 despite got promoted two months early than Case B.

The main problem is that the increment depends on the promotion, but the promotion doesn't depends on the increment! If this is true, it should be rectified.

iitmsriram said...

@sashikumaar, you are wrong; pl. read up on FR22, this has nothing to do with 7th pay commission. FR22 is an old rule that has been gathering dust since the 6th pay commission was implemented as the increment date became common, making this rule more or less of no use. Before 6th pay commission, increment could be in any month and to prevent the situation of your example, FR22 was used. Now that we are back to multiple increment dates (OK, not any month as used to be before 6th pay commission, but Jan 1 or Jul 1), FR22 will again come into play. Using FR22, your example case A would opt for pay fixation on next increment date of July 1 instead of immediately on promotion and the situation would be averted. Incidentally, FR22 has always been operational, but with fixed increment date under 6th pay commission, it is obvious which option is advantageous, so the option is fixed administratively and not given to the employee.

Anonymous said...

does the committee has submitted the report?