Thursday, January 26, 2017

Seventh pay commission

Happy Republic Day.

A committee has been formed to implement seventh pay commission in autonomous institutions such as IIT/IISc/NIT. You can enter your thoughts and comments in this thread. This is the current table for regular central government employees.

155 comments:

iitmsriram said...

I have submitted to the committee to consider using the same government pay matrix, mapping our existing AGP / scales of 6000 / 7000 / 8000 / 9000 / 9500 / 10500 / HAG to pay levels 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14 and 15 respectively; and to retain the current higher starting point benefit, the starting cells may be taken as 8, 8, 10, 1, 3, 5 and 1. I have made one other suggestion to the committee, to raise CPDA to 2 lakhs per year. Not that my suggestions will be given any more weightage than anyone else's suggestions, I think I am sort of first off the block.

I do recall we were unhappy with the structural changes that came during 6th pay commission, but I am not sure what structural changes may be required now.

iitmsriram said...

@anon asking about what is percentage increase in pay (in another thread). The general factor used by the government is 2.57, but as DA is already at 132%, the real increase is from 2.32 to 2.57 or about 10%. Of course, there are other things like HRA which will decrease in percentage (from 30 to 24 in the "metro" slab), but the increase in basic will actually result in HRA going up from 30% of old to 24% of new or a little more than double.

Anonymous said...

In regular central governnment salary structure, a higher salary is given to people posted in remote locations such as the north east.

Perhaps something similar can be thought about faculty at non-metro IITs. Lack of facilities such as good healthcare and children's education can be compensated by a higher salary?

Anonymous said...

I was wondering if there is going to be another Goverdhan Mehta like committee that is going to be formed after the UGC committee submits its report? This for the pay revision in IIX.

iitmsriram said...

@anon wondering about Goverdhan Mehta like committee, the formation of the committee headed by former IITB Director Ashok Mishra is what triggered this thread.

@anon thinking of faculty at non-metro IITs, the "higher salary" at remote locations for government servants is in the form of special allowances and currently, all those allowances are given to IIX faculty also, on par with other government servants posted at the same location. Basically, faculty (and non-teaching staff) at IIX at town abcd will get same allowances as any other government servant posted to town abcd. I suspect your suggestion is to not go by this, but compare IIX at town abcd vs IIX at Delhi / Mumbai / Chennai and provide some compensatory allowance that is not available to other government employees posted to town abcd; this will be a hard sell. All IIXs have their own schools and hospitals / medical schemes, it would be difficult to argue for extra allowances for the same, especially when existing government rules have provision to support schooling elsewhere etc.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram:

Will there also be an increase in the salary of an INSPIRE faculty with the implementation of the 7th pay commission recommendations? Their salary is supposedly fixed (lump sum of 80,000 Rs. with 3.3 yearly increments) but then, their salary is apparently pegged 'equivalent to the salary of an IIT Assistant Professor' as per the award letter.

Anonymous said...

Is there a way of linking the salary to productivity by assessing a person's research/teaching/admin output? However subjective decisions like this are always prone to corruption.
Some IITs have already instituted awards for research and teaching - perhaps something like this can be made common across all IIX?

One thing that sometimes irks me is that a highly unproductive and lazy professor also earns the same as I do.

Anonymous said...

"a highly unproductive and lazy professor also earns the same as I do."

It is not correct to call the blog host as lazy and unproductive.

If you are good, you will get Bhatnagar, fellowships such as JC Bose/Swarnajayanthi etc. and you will earn several lakhs more than your colleagues.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram: Are there any perks for new recruits at IITM? For instance, IITB has the J.R. Issac Assistant Chair Professor, IITK gives a significant top-up to the salary.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram: Are there any perks for new recruits at IITM? For instance, IITB has the J.R. Issac Assistant Chair Professor, IITK gives a significant top-up to the salary.

Anonymous said...

"It is not correct to call the blog host as lazy and unproductive. " I don't know what to make of this statement - perhaps sarcasm? Hard for me to detect.

"...Bhatnagar, fellowships such as JC Bose/Swarnajayanthi etc..."
1) Shouldn't it be preferable that there is a tiered system of performance based incentive rather than huge jumps?
2) What about excellence in teaching and administration? I regularly hear from the deans etc. that IITs like to focus a lot on teaching but almost all promotions and most awards seem to be based on research output.

iitmsriram said...

@anon asking about perks for new recruits, IITM gives all new recruits 10K per month top up till they reach PB4 grade. This is designed so that (except under some relatively rare conditions), the salary never decreases like it will when the top up is x amount for 3 years - the 4th year salary will be significantly lower.

@anon wondering about linking salary to performance, the 6th pay commission provided for a performance related incentive scheme PRIS. IITs were asked to submit a proposal which was promptly shelved. This would have provided for upto 30% higher pay for top performers.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram Are there Asst. Professors recruited by IITM directly at PB4 level?

iitmsriram said...

@anon, yes. If the candidate fulfils the eligibility requirements for PB4, IITM is directly offering PB4.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram and the eligibility requirement I assume is 3 years of Asst. Professor (which includes 3 years of teaching courses)?

iitmsriram said...

@anon, eligibility for PB4 is 3 years as regular (8000 AGP or equivalent) assistant professor. Whether a particular stint is eligible to be counted is decided by the selection committee.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

Why should one look at this matrix at all? The committee has intelligent people. They can think afresh from first principles about salaries at IIXs.

Unfortunately, I have serious doubts if this would happen. Even when given sufficiently well defined but open-ended terms of reference, committees instead ask for more structure and guidelines to aid their thinking, in effect abdicating their 'dharma' as academicians, which is to apply their own damn minds and stand firmly by what can be backed by reason. Even important award selection committees don't apply discretion or use power of persuasion and communication. They instead slavishly try to reduce their contribution to something of a mechanical bean-counting/pattern-matching nature.

I would say we trash this matrix altogether and begin by asking basic questions:
- what does evidence say about the worth of a faculty?
- what frameworks are available to assess this worth? what is the right economic model, etc?
- is the worth a function of age/seniority? or is it independent of seniority? is it a function of teaching? of research? as measured by? as not measured by?

iitmsriram said...

@Ankur says "They can think afresh from first principles about salaries at IIXs".

This can be done if hiring / firing / annual increments / initial salary setting etc are also done "from first principles", I don't see how we can do one without the other and @Ankur puts these as the "basic questions". This would further require management (administrators) to be hired separately with their own performance benchmarks. This has been done in PSU's, to some extent at least. Is the faculty body ready for this? Except some of the IIM's, the rest of the IIX institutions are largely dependant on government grants to meet the expenditures, this is unlike the PSU's where such dependence may not be there. Will the government be willing to adapt this model and still continue to give grants as in the past?

In any case, the mandate of the committee states "It would be necessary to ensure that the final package of benefits proposed to be extended to the employees of these Autonomous Organisations etc. is not more beneficial than that admissible to the corresponding categories of the Central Government employees". That is not very open ended.

Anonymous said...

Modi is opening seven centers of excellence. Here the director and professors can get paid whatever they want. They do not need to follow governmental norms in terms of purchase or salary.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

@iitmsriram --

-- what are the "corresponding categories" of the Central Government employees? these are undefined, and probably no corresponding category exists.

-- is assessing "readiness" of the faculty body part of the mandate of the committee? if so, does their report carry a scientific assessment of this?

-- "will the government be willing to adapt": is thinking about this also part of the mandate?

I can't see why the committee cant take a cold and rational stand and put it on record, when it has been appointed to do so. It is not the committee's job to second guess anybody's thinking.

I am convinced that if academicians in India act as academicians in the true sense of the word, a lot of good would happen. Perhaps the govt will trust us more. Currently it does not trust us much because it thinks we are part-politicians in the guise of academicians.

iitmsriram said...

Ashok Mishra committee is meeting on Tuesday 14th. If someone has suggestions, I can pass it along for the committee to consider. I will be passing along Ankur's suggestion about "thinking afresh from first principles", though I have my doubts about how much traction it will find.

Anonymous said...

One can have a few allowances like a.) 9 lacs CPDA available as one block or multiple blocks over 3 year period, b.) Science/engineering magazine allowance (atleast 2 magazines per month), c.) better health insurance for family, d.) Phone/internet allowance upto 2500 p.m
,e.) children education allowance upto Rs. 40-50 K (per child) per year.

iitmsriram said...

Some comments on anon's proposals.

CPDA is likely to be proposed as going to 6 lakhs for first 3 year slab and then 8 lakhs for next slab etc.

The report will also recommend some medical coverage along lines of CGHS. Actual coverage is done by individual institutions, unlikely that this common committee will recommend specifics. For example, IITM medical coverage is 1.5 lakhs for family paid for by the Institute and option to get additional cover of upto 4 lakhs by employee paying (currently about 18K), plus corporate buffer etc. I believe this is good coverage, not sure what is expected by way of "better".

Since IITs provide unlimited un-billed net connections in the office and at home, not sure how one can justify an allowance for this. And, the monthly phone bill for IITM as a whole is approximately Rs. 500 per faculty member (total bill divided by total number of faculty members). Unless this is suggested as a ruse to get more money, I can't see how this can be justified.

How does one justify higher children's education allowance than what is given to other government employees?

Anonymous said...

Please do not increase CPDA. Already many faculty attend useless conferences abroad in Dubai etc. just so that they can spend the CPDA money. Let there be a competetive scheme to obtain travel money. Three years back, CSA pooled their CPDA money and bought 100 pen drives and donated it to scientific staff. I am not joking. Ask Prof. Giri.

IISc does not provide internet at home. We have to pay 1500 to BSNL to get unlimited internet (40 GB) or so. Then you have to add our mobile bills and landline bills. Currently IISc pays a maximum of 1000.

Saptarshi Basu said...

Yes I am from IISc and hence the internet+phone combo should be increased to Rs. 3000 in lieue of free internet+phone. CGHS of 1.5 lacs+4 lacs is grossly inadequate. I think ISRO and others get way more than that. So for IIXs, this should be atleast 10-15 lacs per family.

Anonymous said...

It's really sad that because of few people abusing the incentives given to them, others have to suffer. But I agree that many faculties do engage in such unethical practices.

@Prof. Sriram
Can you suggest the committee that CPDA allowance should be increased. A mechanism might be that beyond a fixed threshold (say 3 lacs) additional CPDA money should allocated in proportion to the sponsored research project money a faculty brings to his/her institute and department?

iitmsriram said...

@SaptarshiBasu, ISRO etc do not have insurance (they are under own hospital / reimbursement plan). Is there a rationale behind asking for 10 - 15 lakhs per family per year coverage? IITM coverage is basic 1.5 lakhs + corporate buffer 3 lakhs, employees can pay and add on 4 lakhs coverage on top of this to get 8.5 lakhs coverage. I am familiar with IITM claims, there may be at most 1 claim every year that exceeds this. Why coverage of 10 to 15 lakhs?

iitmsriram said...

@anon states "faculty attend useless conferences abroad in Dubai etc." Why allow this? If faculty want to attend conferences organised by WASET, say, admin can simply refuse. This is similar to permitting / encouraging faculty members to publish in junk (predatory) journals. Why put up with it / allow it?

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Sriram,

Would I be correct in assuming that the pay revision would more or less follow the general theme of 7CPC recommendations for the Central Govt Employees? My pay was revised after Jan 2016. According to 7CPC recommendations, there is an option provided for employees to delay their shifting to the new pay (so that they can get benefited). I hope such provisions will be provided for IIX faculty as well.

iitmsriram said...

@anon, it is a broad assumption that the Ashok Mishra committee will recommend pay revision for CFTI faculty along the general lines of the 7th CPC. Some, like @ankur here, have suggested that the committee should take a different approach, don't know if the committee will go that way. I believe the option to switch over to new scales on 1.1.2016 or at later date will be given, just like it is given to other government employees.

iitmsriram said...

Forgot to add, faculty associations have submitted inputs to the Ashok Mishra committee. IITK, for example, has suggested that directors be stepped up to the level of cabinet secretary, from their current standing equivalent to secretary to government of India (one scale lower than cabinet secretary); the suggestion continues down the line with HAG level professors to be elevated to the level of what is now IIT Director, associate professors to be elevated to what is currently HAG professor and so on.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

I have two more suggestions: Probably it is an institute-level matter to be dealt with individually by each institute. Faculty should be allowed to choose their productivity mix -- a% teaching, b% research, c% admin, from some set combinations of a,b,c. The minimum level for qualifying for associate or prof or HAG should be different for faculty from different productivity mixes. Accordingly, the pay could also differ.

A prerequisite for this is first figuring out what the value various combinations of a,b,c are to the institute and use salary as a way for the institute to signal this value to its employees. Currently we deluding ourselves into thinking that the value is independent of a,b,c.

Second suggestion: find a way to make IIX faculty/students/staff institute employees instead of govt employees. Over time phase out this grand unified centralized anachronistic pay determining exercise and replace it with one at the institute levels.

Anonymous said...

Ankur, do not waste your time with these suggestions. Nothing of these will happen. What will happen is as follows:

1. mapping our existing AGP / scales of 6000 / 7000 / 8000 / 9000 / 9500 / 10500 / HAG to pay levels 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14 and 15 respectively;

And then double existing benefits such as

2. Increase telephone bill reimbursement to 2000 from 1000
3. Increase money for people holding two fellowshoips to 30000 from 15000
4. Increase CPDA to 2 lakhs from 1 lakh

Medical coverage is institution based and nothing will happen.

Nothing else will happen. Mark my words.

IISc Prof Giri's friend

Ankur Kulkarni said...

I am almost certain that none of my suggestions will be followed. However, I do not make them I will be making the same mistake as I was above accusing committees of making - i.e., instead of applying their minds on the task at hand, applying it on thinking of what the government will think.

Doubling existing benefits seems okay, but it would be much better if it was backed by analysis and logical reasoning.

iitmsriram said...

@Giri's friend is making good predictions. Telephone bills is seen as a local issue and the committee has not discussed it so far. Fellowship increase as noted was discussed. CPDA suggestion is likely to be 6 lakhs for 3 years going up to 8 lakhs / 10 lakhs for successive blocks based on assessment. Committee is most likely to make some suggestion on medical coverage, but it may not be mandatory. At least two IITs have expressed great difficulty with their current schemes and have requested the committee to come up with some recommendation. The committee is also most likely to make some recommendation to tackle the income tax on deemed rent perk issue.

@Giri's friend also appears to be pessimistic about anything else changing. Short of broad structural changes as suggested by @ankur, I believe the committee will look seriously at any other issues. Do you have any such suggestions, @Giri's friend?

The committee does not appear to believe in broad structural changes as suggested by @ankur.

Anonymous said...

Sriram: What about the payscale mapping. What is the committee's view on that. Income tax on perks is a nonsense action to begin with, hope the comm. eradicates the same.

Anonymous said...

Pay scale mapping will be straightforward with the suggestion above.

The doubling of benefits is just based on logic that DA is now more than 100%. Benefits such as fellowships, CPDA etc. are to be doubled. Telephone is unique to IISc and 2000 may be recommended for IISc. Medical insurance in IISc is just 50000 per family per year. But additional insurance of 5 lakhs is available. But it is also a local issue.

People like Giri who do very well have no shortage of money either through grants or personal money from fellowships or JC Bose. With Bhatnagar award winners likely to get 10-15 lakhs in contingency per year and JC Bose also having 15 lakhs in contingency, people will get 30 lakhs per year in contingency. They do not need CPDA. If things like CPDA are also based on assessment, they will get the maximum slab. Then having two fellowships also gives personal money. Best is to have all benefits to be the same for everyone.

There is no pessissm regarding this. Benefits from institutes should be similar. Outside benefits from DST, CSIR etc. are always obtained by deserving scientists.

The perk tax is unique to a few institutes and is based on income tax rule. It is not within the purview of the committee. If the comm. eradicates this tax, income tax office should take them to court. they can not violate the law of the land. Sometimes it is an interpretation of the IT commissioner but IISc can not claim to be a charity officially and also a government institution. They can not have it both ways. Further, IISc has not been enacted by the parliment unlike IITs or IISERs or NIT.Either IISc pays this tax from their kitty or keeps quiet.

iitmsriram said...

@anon, my responses as below.

Medical benefits is not entirely local issue. Institutions are bound to provide some kind of support. At the IITs, for example, the statutes (annexure AA) binds the institute to provide medical assistance for serving employees. However, this support may become open ended, so the institutes have a vested interest to come up with a scheme so that expenditure is controlled. Going for medical insurance is one way to control the expenditure. Employees have to push to ensure that the coverage offered is meaningful and sufficient. The Ashok Mishra committee is likely to make a recommendation that institutions continue with reimbursement model or go for insurance with some prescribed cover or some prescribed cost contribution from the institute.

Two academy fellow ship cannot be availed along with Bhatnagar fellowship, just as a point of information.

Perk tax is not the law, it is an administrative rule. There is some history behind it. Some income tax assessing officers decided that employees of universities, autonomous institutions etc are not government and issued income tax demands. These were appealed by institutions and employees and both tax tribunals and courts ruled in favour of the employees. In the case of PSU's, the ruling was in favour of the taxman. Instead of accepting this, the IT department issued a clarification to the existing rule 3(1), adding a note that employees of PSU's, Universities, autonomous institutions etc will not be considered government employees for the purpose of this rule. By the way, the institution does not pay this tax, it is paid as income tax by the individuals. Don't know about IISc, but CFTI's can definitely ask to be included under the definition of government for the purpose of this rule. The committee does not have the power to annul the income tax. But, if the pay package is approved along with this provision, this will stand and the tax man will not be able to challenge it in court. The condition likely to be set is that the accommodation should be similar in facilities to standard government housing and the license fees, allotment eligibility etc should be same as standard government rules.

Giri@iisc said...

"committee is likely to make a recommendation that institutions continue with reimbursement model or go for insurance with some prescribed cover"

Currently, IISc provides 50000 coverage for the family and one can buy an additional 7 lakhs as coverage by paying extra.

"Two academy fellow ship cannot be availed along with Bhatnagar fellowship, just as a point of information."

That's correct but Bhatnagar is apparently going to be changed to 10 lakhs per year as contingency instead of 15000 pm as fellowship. Therefore, one can avail both as discussed by my "friend"

"Don't know about IISc, but CFTI's can definitely ask to be included under the definition of government for the purpose of this rule. "

But IISc is not registered under the act of Parliament and can not be considered as a government institution. I was extensively involved in this and met the IT commissioner on this. Of course, it can change if the interpretation by the assessing officer changes.

Giridhar

Anonymous said...

If Perks related taxes continue , more people will leave campus housing. Right now, I pay something like 1 lac per year extra as taxes and I forego my HRA. This puts my total loss to a very high value. After 7th pay commission, HRA is supposed to go up and so will the perks and so will be the tax. Hence one may end up paying (or loosing) close to 40-60 K p.m for institute housing. Now if the housing is like IITG, maybe one can put an argument that maybe it is worth but not for IISc housing. Remote IIT employees have to bite the bullet since there maybe nothing outside. However Bangalore, Madras, Bombay, Delhi the story maybe different.

also medical insurance kind of sucks at IISc though technically you can get upto 7 lacs coverage. However like dirac delta, the insurance drops to zero moment you set foot outside bangalore.

Anonymous said...

"February 16, 2017 at 3:25 PM"

"If Perks related taxes continue , more people will leave campus housing."

IISc is not listed as institute of national importance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Institutes_of_National_Importance

Till it is not listed there and IISc does not still claim to be a charity organization, the perk related taxes will continue. You should first understand the amount of work done in the previous administration to make this happen and meeting the IT officials. This was completely dropped by the current administration. But this is understandable considering the directors and deputy director, all (?) divisional chairmen stay outside the campus. They are not interested in getting a waiver. Ask them how many times they have approached the IT officials for the waiver or MHRD to get it listed as INI. No wonder the tax tribunal ruled against IISc.

IISc is the only institution (unlike IITs/NITs) where the majority of administration including director lives outside the campus.


Unknown said...

Forgive my ignorance, what is perk tax?
Is it tax on institute provided housing (treated as a perk?)

Sridhar

iitmsriram said...

@unknown, yes, this is about tax on institute provided housing treated as a perk. Before 2013, IIX employees were treated as government employees for this purpose. For government employees, standard license fee - amount actually recovered from employee is taken as the value of the perk. As the recovery amount is usually same as the standard license fee, the value of the perk is zero and there is no tax liability. In 2013, the annual income tax circular added a note that employees of autonomous institutions, universities etc would not be considered as government employees for this purpose of housing perk. That means, the value is taken as 15% of salary in metros minus whatever employee paid as license fee and this value is subject to income tax. For someone getting monthly salary of 1 lakh and paying Rs. 1000 as license fee, this adds 14K to taxable income. If the income tax bracket is 30%, staying in quarters will add 30% of 14K or Rs. 4200 to income tax.

Anonymous said...

you have not defined salary properly..it is not just basic or DA.

As an example, Prof. Giri earns

200000 as basic + DA
15000 from Bhatnagar
25000 from JC bose
100000 from Consultancy
10000 from GATE/KVPY exams etc. (average over a month)

Now the total salary is 3.5 lakhs per month. It is 15% from this !

iitmsriram said...

@anon, I have clearly stated "someone getting salary of 1 lakh", as an example, as the answer was oriented towards someone not familiar with the issue, presumably someone near the entry level (in which case this is a good number). You are free to use any example you want.

If we want to nit pick, I can do the same. I am sure Prof. Giri is not getting 200000 per month as basic + DA. DA from 1.1.2017 has not been announced, with previous DA, the stagnation point is Rs. 183280. And so on. But yes, point taken, the 15% is reckoned on all items considered under the head salary.

Giri@iisc said...

anon@February 17, 2017 at 2:58 PM:

I do not get 200000 as basic + DA. Neither does our director !

I do not get 100000 from consultancy.

I do not know whether honorarium under gate is counted under salary or income from other sources as this is a honorarium. I have to check.

Your point is well taken though..15% is based on all items under salary.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram Giri@iisc
Thanks for the open discussion of faculty compensation in India. I have interviewed at a few places in India recently and found the visits mutually exciting. I have PhD + 3 year postdoc + 3 year non-tenure faculty/staff scientist experience. During the junior faculty years, I have secured medium sized grants, taught a course, participated in outreach + published my research. I am wondering if someone in my situation is eligible for entry as tenure-track faculty at IISc directly in PB-4?

@iitmsriram already pointed out that selection committee assesses if a particular stint counts. My question is whether the institutes have discretion to offer tenure-track faculty (Assistant professor) entry in PB-4?

Anonymous said...

" IITs were asked to submit a proposal which was promptly shelved. This would have provided for upto 30% higher pay for top performers."

Well, JC Bose will go up to 35-40 K and two fellowships to 30 K. Thus, one gets 70 K, which is roughly 35% higher pay than others. Youngsters can get Swarnajayanthi and two fellowships.

IISc does not want an incentive system in house because that will lead to headaches to administration. Recently, in IISc, the admin wanted to promote 14 people from professor to HAG scale. Then they decided that 13 will be based on seniority and one will be "out of turn" based on merit. And they gave it to the blog host. Questions like this were asked "What does Giri do? He teaches more than everyone else, publishes and gets cited more than many of us, serves in committees..but how does it mean he is better than me?"

Best is to NOT provide any incentive at the institutional level. If decisions are made at DST, CSIR or some other agency, one can throw up their hands and say "Of course, I know you are better than him but what can I do ? It was decided by some stupid committee instituted in DST. Of course, one should NOT ask "Did you not serve on the committee?" :-)


IISc Prof Giri's friend

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MS said...

@Prof Sriram:
"All IIXs have their own schools and hospitals / medical schemes"
"the "higher salary" at remote locations for government servants is in the form of special allowances and currently, all those allowances are given to IIX faculty also, on par with other government servants posted at the same location"

I am a faculty at New IIX and with all respect I will like to mention few things.

This IIX does not has its own school.
The school bus charges are half of my transport allowance
and the school fees is a factor of 3 of the GoI allowance.

As for hospital it has a clinic with good for nothing part time doctors who do not
prescribe medicines beyond the minuscule inventory to avoid questions.
They will refer to city hospital for which you will probably spend more in transportation
then in medicine.

Now I should not complain about this because we are still in our temporary campus
which is just 10 kms from city with public transport available.
In couple of months we will move to our "permanent campus" which will again have no hospital or school.
And its only 25 kms with no public transport.

PS: All GoI offices are in the city.
PPS:No we do not have top ups.

Anonymous said...

I am an Asst Prof on PB3 at IISc and some simple questions.

(i) When will I receive the new pay?
(ii) How much will I get as per the new pay commission including HRA/TA, etc (I just need one number as 1.XX lakhs)?
(iii) Also, how much arrears am I supposed to receive and when?

Anonymous said...

"I am an Asst Prof on PB3 at IISc and some simple questions...I just need one number as 1.XX lakhs"

Typical arrogant iisc prof. why cant they do the simple math that a 10 year old understand? Well, why do the math when someone else like Giri or Sriram will do it for you !

Anonymous said...

Ha ha..good one at above. For the record, I am a typical iisc prof (in PB3) and I could do the mathematics.

Anonymous said...

what was the recommendations made by the Misra committee

iitmsriram said...

@anon wondering about pay review committee, the Ashok Mishra committee has not yet submitted its recommendations. It had one meeting last week and next one is scheduled for 20 March. The committee has asked for one month extension (till end of March) to submit its report.

Ordinary Person said...

@ Prof. Sriram and others who are aware of the developments of the committee.

I think that at the time of implementation of 6th pay commission, the 3-year on-contract Assistant Professor position was invented.
Some time last year there was discussion on introducing tenure in IITs. Do you think it can/ should be introduced by the committee now? https://giridharmadras.blogspot.in/2015/12/tenure.html

Anonymous said...

Please do not introduce tenure. If you introduce tenure, good faculty like Prof. Giri will not get tenure because they will be denied tenure by the department itself. It will lead to lot of insecurity also and you have to be a slave to the chairman, director, and so on.

Look at IIT Gandhinagar..such IITs have two years probation..no faculty even wants to talk about the weather because it may offend the director and they will lose their job

iitmsriram said...

IISc has already introduced tenure. Ashok Mishra committee is not looking at tenure. IIT council has already informed individual IITs that they may introduce tenure system if they want through their BoG.

@Ordinary Person, during the 5th pay commission, the AP position (12000 scale) qualification was PhD and three years experience. The position for fresh PhD's was supposed to be lecturer (10000 scale of that time), but this did not happen. IITs counted three years experience as the research experience as GRA / GTA which many people had while doing PhD. So, the empire struck back. In 6th pay commission, the AP position specified 3 years experience excluding the experience gained while pursuing the degree. But instead of just the 10000 scale (7000 AGP), it added the 8000 scale (6000 AGP) also in the pattern 2 + 1 years. The administrative apparatus was very happy with this as the staring point became the same as for IAS (in some equivalent way) as 5400 GP / 6000 AGP. But this basically forced a pattern of 1 + 2 years "on contract" before becoming "regular" AP and faculty were not happy with this. The Ashok Mishra committee is trying to fix this by specifying a unified 3 year block (not tenure) titled AP grade 1. Once the recruit has 3 years experience, there will be an assessment and movement to level 12 to become AP grade 2. After 3 years, AP grade 2 will move to level 13 and also become eligible for promotion to Asso Prof level 13A. The push now is to fix AP grade 1 at level 11, counter pressure is to place at level 10. Let us see how it plays out.

Vijay Desai said...

Now that new fiscal year is on the verge, hope the Government will not delay any further in implementing the VII Pay commission to all the CFTI's.

desainitk

Anonymous said...

Typical IIT/NIT professors..always thinking about pay commissions and money. No work is required.

Report will be submitted on 31 March and the government has to implement it in one day. Wish these professor correct a manuscript in one day or even publish manuscripts in top journals in one year.

Unknown said...

We at NITK and most of NITs are in AGP 8000 or 7000 even after 10 to 15 yrs of post Ph.D experience/service in CFTI with JSPS, Humbhold post doc, project, jounal papers. However, 6th CPC allowed faculty without Ph.D as Associate. Can this committee do something to give MOKSHA to these Asst profs.

Unknown said...

Unless 6th CPC anomalies r corrected u can not simply multiply by 2.57 or fix level.

iitmsriram said...

@unkonwn, anomalies cannot be corrected unless they are enunciated properly. Faculty without PhD not becoming associate professors is not an anomaly, it is a result of adoption of flexi cadre. One can't usually have it both ways. IITs also adopted this "no associate professor without PhD" at the time of the 4th pay commission. All non-PhD faculty were told to get PhD or retire as assistant professors. Most got PhDs and got promoted, a few retired as assistant professors. That is the price to pay for upgraded scales. NITs are also institutions of national importance, the faculty get same scales as in IITs under flexi cadre. So, same rules should apply - get PhD or retire as assistant professor. To make things worse, NITs have adopted recruitment rules (mostly now stayed by courts) that specify number of papers, number of PhDs to be graduated, number of short term courses to be conducted etc etc as minimum eligibility conditions. This was brought to the attention of the Ashok Mishra committee, but the committee has declined to get into recruitment rules of individual NITs as being outside the scope of the pay review.

Anonymous said...

Thanks @iitmsriram and @giri for initiating discussion. Regarding CPDA, we at NITs found it very useful particularly for young faculty (where there is no seed grant to do any research etc), but its so happened that MHRD noticed few deviations in use. It was mostly few faculty purchased items not specified in the grant, but now the grant is blocked for research interaction/collaboration visits etc. Pls specify exactly the terms and conditions of CPDA so that there can be no violation. Also, pls include laptop for faculty once in 2 block period, (since it is not provided by the institute like in pvt institute), research interaction/collaboration visits (specify what output is expected like publications). purchase any item related to research (like consumables, characterization/testing charges to other labs). Incentives for research publications(to encourage young faculty). There may be some fund to provide incentives for Ph.D students also for publications (it worked well in Singapore and Malaysia to get QS ranking).

Anonymous said...

Sir, I think you have mistaken it. What I said was Lecturers of 5th CPC without Ph.D were fixed as Associate Professors(AGP 9000) in 6th CPC based on number of yrs of service etc. Secondly, all those 6th CPC Assistant Profs(AGP 6000,7000) with Ph.D., post doc etc are blocked since 2006 till today without promotion to PB4. We spent 3 yrs in 6000 AGP, 4 years in 7000 AGP(we have post Ph.D 10 yrs experience at NIT only, excluding outside post doc) and still in PB3 basic 15,900/. How can we account for 10 yrs post Ph.D service? Is it gone? can 7cpc do something to find our basic as on Jan1,2016?

Anonymous said...

Sir, regarding recruitment rules, the MHRD letter says that 7CPC revised pay comes with recruitment rules and qualification etc-thanks

iitmsriram said...

@anon, what MHRD letter?

The only thing I can find is the appointment of the Ashok Mishra committee, which mentions "... it has been decided that the revised pay scales as per the Pay Matrix ... as well as principle of pay fixation ... may be extended to the employees of such organisations. However, it shall also not be made automatically applicable to the employees of Autonomous Organisations but to be considered by the Administrative Ministry for its justification based on functional considerations, recruitment qualifications as well as the applicable pre-revised pay scales".

And, "Accordingly the Ministry of Human Resource Development (D/o Higher Education) has constituted a Pay Review committee for all Centrally Funded Technical Institutions and the composition of the same is as under:- ... The committee will submit its recommendation ...".

As the previous similar committees had mentioned qualifications, I believe this committee will also do that but not venture beyond that (into recruitment rules).

Also, CPDA norms for utilisation are not set centrally, only the broad guidelines are. I don't believe the committee sees any need to change the broad guidelines. (personal opinion) If some institutions permitted collaboration visits under CPDA, that is an extension beyond the stated purpose. The MHRD description for CPDA is clear and mentions only conferences "... to meet the expenses for participating in both national and international conferences ..."

Anonymous said...

Thank you sir, you are right. I was referring only to ",,,,,,, based on functional considerations, recruitment qualifications as well as the applicable pre-revised pay scales".

Sir, would it be possible to mention in your report that "the pay and AGP as on 1st Jan 2016 as per 4-tier norm to be multiplied by the factor ( is it 2.57?) to get the new pay/level in 7CPC" because the pay/AGP as on 1st Jan 2016 is critical, which will be multiplied by a factor. As of now, in NITs, the pay/AGP on that date is not according to flexible(4-tier), neither 3 tier (UGC/college) considering qualification and service criteria. Therefore,term "4-tier" is important.

What about those faculty who do not qualify for 4-tier in NIT, for instance a professor? what is his pay level compare to professor of 10500 AGP?
what about Assistant prof of AGP 7000(which is contractual position),if he/she did not qualify for 8000 AGP? will he be fired or continue in the same level?
In which level, existing ASSOCIATE professors WITHOUT Ph.D (presently they are in AGP 9000) will be placed? what is their new designation?
LEVEL 13 in pay matrix is which designation, ASSISTANT PROF or ASSOCIATE PROF?

These situations may not exist in IIT but in NITs.

Thanks again

iitmsriram said...

@(presumably from NIT)anon, I think I got your point. In the old scheme, NITs had upgraded scales compared to universities under three tier fixed cadre scheme and IITs had further upgraded scales under the four tier flexi-cadre scheme. Now, NITs are shifting to four tier flexi-cadre scheme, but there are a lots of (almost all?) faculty members at NITs who are having scales under the old scheme. What is to become of them? Yes, eventually, they will all move to four tier flexi-cadre but what in the meantime? I believe that all of these colleagues would have received the upgraded scales (higher entry points, increments) under three tier scheme and it would be reasonable to simply map them into the university scales? The factor may not be 2.57, but whatever is applied to that particular pay level.

I believe the issue of associate professors in 9000 AGP is already addressed; during shift to flex-cadre, it has been indicated that they will remain in 9000 AGP with title of associate professor, but will have to apply against advertisement and be recruited afresh to associate professor to get 9500 AGP (correct me if I am wrong on this). If they do not have PhD, they will have to retire as associate professor in 9000 grade / level 13. If they have PhD, they can shift to flexi-cadre 9500 grade / level 13A by applying against advertisement. I don't agree with the idea to move them to flex-cadre automatically. If we strictly apply shift to flex-cadre, above candidates will get titularly demoted to assistant professor, which is also not good. Of course, we don't know what will happen; there will be lobbying and this is something NITs are good at, much better than IITs :-)

Anonymous said...

Sir you are correct. Some NITs moved to flexible cadre (4-tier) already but due to this lobby, Assistant professors are trapped in AGP 7000/8000, not moved/selected for Associate even if they have 10 yrs post Ph.D service, research credentials, projects, foreign post doc etc, citinging technical problem. Technical problem is that we were never moved to 8000 AGP and they say that you have to complete that and cannot jump AGP. However, now newly recruited Assistant profs and Associate profs are getting higher entry pay of 4-tier (30K+8k for Asst prof and 43K+9.5K for Assoc). Nobody is bothered about us because of lower designation and number. Ideally as per 4-tier, we shall be fixed at 30000+8000 after 3 years of post ph.D experience (post doc/teaching). After 3 years in 80000 we should be selected to Assoc 9500 AGP subjected to meeting credentials of 4 tier (which we have). The starting date of fixation shall be 1st Jan 2006 because in 6th pay implementation NITs were told to adopt flexi cadre through various MHRD orders. The main issue is that in flexi cadre implementation, some well performing junior faculty will take over seniors. Hence the lobby is defeating it. We would be thankful if you could address this issue, where ever is possible in your report. It is
directly related to the pay on 1st Jan2016, which will be multiplied to get 7 cpc pay.

Regarding faculty at AGP 9000 (without Ph.D), they are currently designated as Associate prof in NITs/colleges/UGC. but I think in IIT it is Assistant prof only. Hence i referred it.
Thank you sir

Anonymous said...

I am just wondering why NIT professors have so many grievances yet continue to work there. Are there not better places to work ? Maybe because in NIT, it is a government job and one does not need to work??

Anonymous said...

Let me be blunt here and just point out that the renumeratuon vs work output ratio of 'most' NITs far exceeds the IITs faculties. NITs have practically zero research output, they are not doing much good with the teaching either. I have first hand experience of incompetance of NIT faculties, especially old professors. Hopefully, new faculties will change this trend. Problem is that every instituition develops a culture over the time and it's much easier to get molded in that culture that to change it. This is the prime reason government decided to set up new IITs that coverting NITs into IITs.
People in IITs getting same pay as other centrally funded institute is not fair. In my opinion it should be based on research, teaching output.

Fac.iit said...

Recommendations of All India IIT Faculty federation.

Designation Scale Minimum Pay (Rs.)
AP (on Contract) Level 13 1,18,500
Assistant Professor Level 14 1,44,200
Associate Professor Level 15 1,82,200
Professor + HAG Level 16 2,05,400

Other points for consideration at the IIT Council
a. To consider children of IIT faculty for admission in State Govt run colleges where the IIT is located
b. A performance evaluation system of HoDs and Deans on the lines of faculty
evaluation c. To allow faculty to travel on non-Air India in India and abroad when direct connections are not available
d. To introduce PRIS (Organization) on the basis on MHRD ranking.

There was one line written "there was agreement on the CPDA and Medical Insurance for serving and retired Faculty".
What is that agreed CPDA?

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Your blunt comments and first hand info are correct only. In NITs Profs are busy taking 2-3 theory, 1 lab every day (may be syllabus/teaching quality is still not upto mark), which is quite large work load compared to IIT, as I checked with my friends mostly they are taking half a course. Huge shortage of faculty, increase of students intake, lack of facility (only last 4 yrs NITs got some funding), all have contributed to it, but I feel some NITs did well and secured NIRF ranking also. Main reason, is lack of good leadership,particularly director, now i think no good academicians are coming as directors. In the past we got profs from IITs as directors, which should have been continued, but not happening. Regarding salary, IITs feel NITs are paid more, NITs feel that college and polytechnic teachers are paid more. My only wish is let good people come forward and lead.

iitmsriram said...

Saw the AIIITFF recommendations. Not sure how we justify this kind of pay upgrades. When rest of government is using default upgrade factor of 2.57 with some cadres going up to 2.72, how do we justify upgrade factors in the range of 3.5 to 3.8? Or is this some kind of bargaining tactic - ask for 3.5 and settle for something lower?

Ankur Kulkarni said...

If one thinks clearly from fundamentals, one will know whether it can be justified and how. The current approach is scientifically so adhoc that I don't think you will be able to rigorously justify anything.

Anonymous said...

I think they are looking at PB-4 as the starting pay band for the faculties at IITs. Whereas every now and then I am seeing that govt. is pushing to make faculty posts at IIX attractive to young aspirants in order to fight faculty crunch, to look back on the same old pay structure will surely be a step backward. I don't know about govt. sectors, but as autonomous intitutes IITs may place a strong case for themselves, especially in a time when they are looking abroad to even fetch foreign faculties.

Dr. Sashikumaar Ganesan said...

Here is the discrepancy in 7PC matrix during promotion/increment, please correct me if I am wrong.

Consider the following scale

As on Jan 2016 (Basic + AGP) :: 38800+9000 = 47800*2.57=1,22,846
Mapping at the matrix in level 13 :: 1,25,800 ( >=1,22,846 )

Hence, the basic salary as on 1st Jan 2016 : 1,25,800

CASE A:
Suppose the faculty gets a promotion on 1st June 2016 (one increment in the same level, and then map to the next level), that is,
Salary from 1st June 2016 (increased to 1,29,600 and mapped to level 13A) :: 1,31,100
Salary in Jul'16 (No increment, min. 6 months to be in the slab to get increment) :: 1,31,100
Salary from 1st Jan (new rule on increment, either in Jan/Jul) :: 1,35,000

CASE B:
Suppose the same faculty gets a promotion on 1st Aug 2016:
Salary in Jul'16 (regular increment ) :: 1,29,600
Salary from 1st Aug 2016 (increased to 1,33,500 and mapped to level 13A) :: 1,35,000

Case B gets salary of 1.35K from Aug'16, whereas Case A will reach this salary only in Jan'17 despite got promoted two months early than Case B.

The main problem is that the increment depends on the promotion, but the promotion doesn't depends on the increment! If this is true, it should be rectified.

iitmsriram said...

@sashikumaar, you are wrong; pl. read up on FR22, this has nothing to do with 7th pay commission. FR22 is an old rule that has been gathering dust since the 6th pay commission was implemented as the increment date became common, making this rule more or less of no use. Before 6th pay commission, increment could be in any month and to prevent the situation of your example, FR22 was used. Now that we are back to multiple increment dates (OK, not any month as used to be before 6th pay commission, but Jan 1 or Jul 1), FR22 will again come into play. Using FR22, your example case A would opt for pay fixation on next increment date of July 1 instead of immediately on promotion and the situation would be averted. Incidentally, FR22 has always been operational, but with fixed increment date under 6th pay commission, it is obvious which option is advantageous, so the option is fixed administratively and not given to the employee.

Anonymous said...

does the committee has submitted the report?

Anonymous said...

Is this committee responsible for recommending pay revisions for IIM faculty members as well? When is the deadline for submitting the report? Who are members of the committee?

iitmsriram said...

@anons, yes, the Ashok Mishra committee is responsible for recommending pay for IIM also. It is expected to submit report by March 31, I believe this will happen (they are putting finishing touches). Members of the committee are Prof. Ashok Mishra (chairman), and members being directors of IITM, NIT Delhi, IIM Udaipur, IISER Bhopal, IIITDM Kanchipuram and the concerned Deputy Secretary from MHRD as member - secretary.

Anonymous said...

Sir, Any update on what is finally being proposed?

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram, any update on the Ashok Mishra committee recommendation?

iitmsriram said...

Ashok Mishra committee has submitted its report. They have recommended scaling factor of 2.67 with professors getting scaling factor of 2.72 and all directors going to 225000 fixed, there are no major structural changes. They are also recommending a mini tenure track - those with less than 3 years experience (the current contractual appointments) will be evaluated before getting regular AP appointment. I believe I have mentioned all this in bits and pieces in posts above.

iit.fac said...

Is there any update on CPDA?

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Thx for the info. I think 7 cpc had recommended 24% hra. is it the same in this report?

pandarosan kumar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram

Can you elaborate about recommended mapping (to 7pc pay matrix) for Assistant Profs. (on contract), Assistant Profs., Associate Profs., Profs. and HAG Profs.?

Possibly a new level was added to the existing pay matrix?




Anonymous said...

Does it mean that the new salary as per the recommendation of Ashok Mishra committee will be calculated as follows: (Current basic pay x 2.67) + Grade Pay + Current DA + HRA + Transportation Allowance + DA on Transportation Allowance? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anonymous said...

I think the calculation will be (basic + grade pay) x 2.67 + ....
Sir, Will we get HRA arrears also?

Thank you.

iitmsriram said...

The faculty pay levels recommended are 10, 11, 12, 13A1, 13A2, 14, 14A, and 15 corresponding to AGP of 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 9500, 10000, 10500 and HAG. Allowances are recommended to be same as in rest of government (including 24% HRA in metros etc).

Pay fixation will not be done using 2.67 or 2.72, but only 2.57 as in the rest of government. But the starting pay is indexed using 2.67 or 2.72, so some people will get benefit of 2.67, some will not - good old bunching. Standard two stage bunching limit has also been recommended, so if more than two stages get fixed to the same new pay, one increment will be given to the third stage etc.

To illustrate, say, someone is AP at 30000 + 8000 AGP as on 1.1.2016. The revised scale (pay matrix) for this is level 12 with minimum of 101500 in IITs, NITs etc. The example above will get pay fitment of 38000*2.57 = 97660. As this is less than the minimum of 101500, this person will get fixed at 101500. Someone with one increment above this as on 1.1.2016 will also get the same placement (increment is 1140, pay becomes 38000+1140 = 39140, times 2.57 gives 100590, still less than 101500, so fixed at 101500). With two increments as on 1.1.2016, the mapping will go to one increment above 101500 or 104500. And so on.

As per government resolution all allowances are to continue without revision; a special committee has been set up to study the issue and make recommendation. This committee has submitted its report and we have to wait and see what happens.

Anonymous said...

Dear iitmsriram

Thanks for elaboration. But what are 13A1, 13A2 and 14A?
As far I know there are only 13A and 14.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for this clarification sir. So the revised pay for someone who is currently on an AGP of 9500 will be fixed at a pay level of 13A2 isn't? It will be very helpful if you could provide the minimum pay levels recommended for levels 10 to 15.

iitmsriram said...

I have given the scaling factors, one can work the pay using that. I have given one to one the existing AGP and corresponding recommendation. As an example, 9500 AGP existing comes with 42800+9500 = 52300 as minimum pay. The scale factor for this being 2.67, the new starting pay for this is recommended as 52300*2.67 = 139600 (rounded off from 139641). This is close to standard 13A, but not same, so is given a 13A2 name. I am not reproducing any more detail as all this is only what is being recommended by the committee, we have no idea what will actually be implemented. I am sure the committee report will become public soon.

Anonymous said...

Thanks sir

Anonymous said...

There not much financial benefit in 7th Pay in comparison to 6th pay. Only so much of matrix to engage with. Whatever, little gain will be there, would be cut short by increment in tax component.

Therefore, I suggest Govt should not collect direct taxes from Teachers/Academician/Faculties as a respect to Gurujan. This will be benefit the teaching fraternity rather than 7th pay.

Anonymous said...

Already faculty are paid too much. Most faculty in IIT/NIT work 2-3 hours a day..compare this against any industry and you will realize that the payment is already too high.

Anonymous said...

@Annon above,
May be you belong to that herd.
I work day and nights and I have seen the same for my colleagues. Many of us don't even take saturdays and sundays off and note that we don't get any overtime for that. In addition to teaching and research, we have to manage administrative responsibiltites for not only IITs but other colleges as well because we have some moral obligations to them. It's a thankless job. The only solace we get is when students learn something and thanks us for the education they get. I feel contend.
So don't make comparison to private jobs.

Anonymous said...

"I work day and nights and I have seen the same for my colleagues"

I have never seen more than 10% faculty work on Saturday/sunday in any IITs. I really doubt your statements.

"we have to manage administrative responsibiltites for not only IITs but other colleges as well because we have some moral obligations to them."

""when students learn something and thanks us""

""I feel contend.""

Considering the typographical and grammatical errors in the sentences above and the usage of the word "contend", I can only pity the students who learn from you !

Anonymous said...

"I have never seen more than 10% faculty work on Saturday/sunday in any IITs."
Right, so you have visited and spent enough time in all IITs to gather your sample data and claim such figure? Seems very credible!

Regarding your eagerness to point out typographical/grammatical mistakes, did you want to take refuge under the ambit of insults to make up for your lack of logical arguments? Students could very well be taught in Hindi, Tamil, Marathi etc., and still it can help them to be a good engineers and scientists. If you can demonstrate me how the Newton's law can be better explained with correct English, I will try understand your point.
This language ploy clearly alludes how well your students must be learning from you!

Anonymous said...

I am sure you are capable of writing research papers only in Hindi, Tamil, Marathi etc. and not in English.

Anonymous said...

Keep writing your technical papers using thesauruses and I am sure it will be published. I wish all the great French, German and Russian scientists had taken a cue from you and could've published in English.

Sashikumaar Ganesan said...

To all Anonymous, please do not hijack the good works/information of @iitmsriram, Giri@iisc and others. This forum is not for abusing others that too without disclosing your identity. Different opinions are welcome but don't insult honest faculty.

Anonymous said...

It is in that case the worst pay commission in the history of iit.
what about chair prof pay.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram

Is there any mention of PRIS in the report?

Do you think that PRIS (organization) can be implemented, say, based on MHRD rankings? PRIS (Individual) is continuing to be the bone of contention. What are your thoughts on this issue?

I also request you to shed light on the possible quantum of CPDA that will be made available to the faculty.

Thanks in advance

iitmsriram said...

PRIS was not discussed by the committee. In any case, PRIS has been implemented only in DAE and DoS for scientific cadres and the 7th pay commission has also recommended only this. DRDO has its own version and I believe that will continue as also similar schemes in PSU's. I don't believe anyone else will get PRIS. Yes, it would interesting to ask for PRIS based on what NIRF has thrown up.

As for CPDA, I have already mentioned on Feb 15 what was being proposed. It is recommended that CPDA go up to 6 lakhs for 3 years followed by review. After review, it could go up to 8 lakhs and further to 10 lakhs for successive 3 year slabs. It is also proposed to cap the fraction of faculty receiving CPDA upgrade as also put a minimum limit on what fraction of CPDA has to be availed for travel.

Anonymous said...

Putting a cap for CPDA is problematic, as faculty claim it based on seniority etc bypassing performance. rather performance criteria shall be made more stringent.

Anonymous said...

what is the criteria for movement from 13A1 to 13A2, 14 to 14A1. Is it just number of years or performance based? If some one cannot make it to 13A2, or 14A1, does it mean that he/she will be placed in 13A1 or 14 respectively?

iitmsriram said...

@anon commenting on CPDA, the committee has recommended that CPDA increase be based on performance review and expects individual institutions to come up with their own metrics. We have to trust ourselves to come up with meaningful performance criteria in each institution and not depend on this committee to prescribe x number of conference papers, y number of journal papers etc etc.

@anon commenting on 13A1 and 14, you already know the answer, it is already there in existing MHRD documents. 13A1 and 14 are pre-flexi-cadre non-selection scales whereas 13A2 and 14A are selection (open advertisement plus interview) scales. There can be no "movement" from 13A1 or 14 to 13A2 and 14A. There has to be an open advertisement and selection just like in IITs. The committee has reiterated the same. Of course, there will be protests from NIT faculty that having spent x years in 13A1 / 14 and having achieved mmm papers and nnn short term courses or whatever, they "deserve" to be in 13A2 / 14A. Remains to be seen if MHRD will withstand this pressure.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram and @Prof. Giri : Has the report been made public? If yes, can someone post the link to the report? I believe that UGC pay commission report has not been made public yet.

Anonymous said...

All those faculty who joined IITs and Universities (both central and state) as Assistant Professors after 2006 (in 6th pay commission) have become Professors (many without papers/projects etc). However, those who joined NITs are still continuing as Assistant Professors even with papers/project etc., though with decent recent NIRF ranking. Its now only the last 7cpc hope. Will they compensate for the lost number of years? who is responsible for this mess?

Anonymous said...

lack of clarity of various committee reports/orders have made things worse. Implementation part is still worse with misinterpretations, etc.

Anonymous said...

As per prof. sriram, assistant professor of IIX in PB4 with AGP 9000 will be mapped to 13A1. So, does it mean that this person will move to 13A2 the next year with annual increment? In that case, promotion from assistant to associate becomes meaningless as far as the pay is concerned.

iitmsriram said...

@anon, I appear to miss some logic. Why would a person in 13A1 move to 13A2 because of annual increment? Annual increments will only give progression down the column (cells) in the same pay level. 13A2 represents associate professor 9500, a different pay level; one would have to apply against an advertisement and be selected to move to the 13A2 column.

Giri@iisc said...

I think what he means is that someone with 13A1 and one year annual increment will have the same pay as 13A2. In that case, what is the meaning of promotion from assistant to associate? Both will get the same pay.

I think this is what he is asking.

Anonymous said...

I interpreted 13A1 as first row of 13A column and similarly 13A2 as second row of 13A column. However, Prof. Sriram is saying that 13A1 and 13A2 are different columns of the pay matrix. In that case, promotion from assistant to associate will be meaningful for pay. I could not find any pay matrix with separate 13A1 and 13A2 columns. Is this something new specifically proposed for CFTIs?
Thanks Prof. Sriram and Prof. Giri for all your initiative of helping faculty position applicants and clearing doubts about seventh pay commission. Many like me appreciate your time and sincere efforts.

Anonymous said...

I assume 13A and 13A1 are same and 13A2 and 14A are newly introduced by the committee. For instance, a faculty in 13A/13A1 after a few years will be promoted (selected) to 13A2. Then his salary cannot be reduced but fit into some cell in 13A2, which may be higher than many Associate Profs, who were selected earlier. When such promotion happens, I suppose the faculty will also get one additional increment (not sure). Unless there is a big gap between the coloums, in terms of starting pay, it may lead to anomaly. The salary of junior Associate professor(who joins later) will become more than senior Associate Profs. Same thing with 14/14A. I do not know, may be it is ok like that. Thanks

iitmsriram said...

@anon, why would the committee call it 13A1 if it was the same as 13A? 13A1 has already been submitted by UGC, the starting value is 131400 instead of 131100 as in 13A. This 300 offset is maintained till further down the table when it becomes 400. 13A2 starts with 139600, corresponding to the higher minimum pay given to associate professors at IITs (42800 + 9500). Similarly, 14A corresponds to the higher minimum pay given to professors at IITs (48000 + 10500), so this column starts with 159100 instead of the 144200 that is the starting value of level 14.

The apprehensions about junior getting more pay than senior after promotion are misplaced. Both junior and senior will get pay revision as per pay commission, with the same scaling factor of 2.57. If this scaling factor results in a value less than the minimum value of that pay level, the pay will get bumped up to the minimum. Unless the junior was getting more pay than the senior before promotion, the same status will be maintained after promotion also. This is not an issue limited to educational institutions but applies across entire government. There is also provision for bumping up pay of senior to match that of the junior under some conditions. Can you come up with specific numerical example?

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram: As per some news ( https://www.telegraphindia.com/1170223/jsp/frontpage/story_137313.jsp ) UGC pay commission has recommended a multiplier factor of 2.72. If Ashok Mishra committee has recommended 2.57 for IIT/IIM, wouldn't that be inconsistent?

Anonymous said...

I m not referring to fixation but later promotions. Suppose 1 is fixed at level 14 (agp 10k) and after a few years make it to level 14 A1. Then he will be put into a slot in 14 A1 which could be higher than few existing profs of 14A1.
Sorry I donot have new matrix so cannot give numbers. Pls correct me if its wrong. If 10k prof at cell 5 is selected to 14A1 then he will get more than newly selected prof in cell 2 of 14 A1.

iitmsriram said...

@anon quoting telegraph, pl. see my posts above dated Apr 4 and Apr 6. The fitment factor is 2.57 for everyone but the entry level pay goes up by 2.67 (below professor rank) or 2.72 (for professors). Fresh professors will get the benefit of 2.72, but seniors will get scale up of only 2.57.

@anon worrying about senior - junior issue, if a junior on promotion is getting more than a senior, this junior must have been getting more than the senior before both were promoted also. If senior got pushed back due to bunching at the time of pay commission revision, the same would have happened to the junior also. In your specific example, if the new promotee is getting more than "existing profs" in 14A1, these "existing profs" must have been getting less at level 14 previously before they got promoted to 14A1.

Anonymous said...

"AGP 6000 / 7000 / 8000 / 9000 / 9500 / 10500 / HAG to pay levels 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14 and 15 respectively"

In this consider AGP 10000 also which is exists at NIT level. NIT professors are getting AGP 10,000.

iitmsriram said...

@anon, quoting "AGP 6000 ...", pl. read all the comments before posting

Anonymous said...

I suppose the question was whether in NITs both 10k and 10.5k is going to survive together. Now that is the case in many NITs. According to your posting interview and selection is must for flexible cadre. If a 10k prof fails what will be his level?

iitmsriram said...

OK, since people refuse to read, I will quote from my post of April 6.

"The faculty pay levels recommended are 10, 11, 12, 13A1, 13A2, 14, 14A, and 15 corresponding to AGP of 6000, 7000, 8000, 9000, 9500, 10000, 10500 and HAG."

Profs in 10000 AGP will be placed at pay level 14. If they get selected to prof under flexi cadre (10500 AGP), they will move to pay level 14A. Associate profs in 9000 AGP and assistant profs in 9000 AGP will both be placed in 13A1 pay level. Whey they get selected to associate prof flexi-cadre 9500 AGP, they will move to pay level 13A2.

"Interview and selection is must" is not my statement, I understand that is what the order on movement to flexi cadre states.

Unknown said...

Why IIT NIT committee would look into AGP of 10K? There is no such grade pay in IITs and NITs as I understand. Pl correct me if I am wrong.

iitmsriram said...

@unknown, I would think you are wrong. There are professors in 10,000 AGP and associate professors in 9000 AGP in NITs and IIITs. These are legacy candidates from before the introduction of four tier flexi-cadre scales. In order to move to 10500 and 9500 AGP, these legacy candidates have to go through selection committee and those who have not been successful would still be at 10000 and 9000.

Anonymous said...

dear iitsriram,
Was there any discussion on "Tax on perks"?

Anonymous said...

dear prof.sriram, whether committee has retained the cap of 40% for prof. HAG scale or all eligible profs can become prof HAG?

Anonymous said...

What are the recommendations of the committee regarding retired faculty members ?

iitmsriram said...

@anons, the committee has recommended a way to do away with the tax on perks (deemed perk of quarters); it has not made any recommendation to do away with the 40% HAG cap.

The committee has also not made any specific recommendations for retirees other that provision of medical scheme. "The Committee recommends that the decision of the Government on the recommendations of the 7th CPC regarding pension, provident fund, gratuity and ex gratia lump sum compensation should be adhered to completely in respect of academic staff also."

Anonymous said...

Hello @iitmsriram, what will be the Pay matrix level transition in Mishra Committee recommendations from AGP 8000 to AGP 9000 for assistant professors in IIT X? Will it be 12 to 13A smooth transition after three years?

iitmsriram said...

@anon, committee has recommended that "AP grade I may automatically move to pay level 13A1 once they have 6 years of relevant experience". Also, AP grade I is to be eligible to apply for associate professor if they have 6 years relevant experience. AP grade I is the new name for "regular" AP as opposed to the AP contractual which will become AP grade II.

Ankur Kulkarni said...

What do levels 10, 11, 12 start at? According to the matrix shared by Prof Madras they start at 56100, 67700, 78800. These are less than the current pay for AGP 6000, 7000, 8000.

iitmsriram said...

@ankur, pl. see my posts of Apr 4, 6 and 12 above. The standard government pay matrix is what Giridhar has shared and we have to use OUR minimum pay and the appropriate scaling factor to obtain OUR version of the pay matrix. The scaling factor for entry pay is 2.67 for AP and AsP and 2.72 for Prof. Current minimum pay for Prof at IITs is 48000 + 10500 = 58500, so the new starting pay level 14A is 58500 * 2.72 = 159100 (rounded off from 159120). At the "other" institutions like School of Planning and Architecture, the current entry pay for Prof is 43000 + 10000 = 53000, so the new pay level 14 starts at 53000*2.72 = 144200 (rounded off from 144160). Similarly for AP 8000 grade (new designation AP grade I), the minimum value of pay level 12 is (30000 + 8000) * 2.67 = 101500 (rounded off from 101460) and not the standard 78800 that corresponds to standard government GP of 7600 with minimum pay of 21900 + 7600 = 29500. Yes, 29500 * 2.67 = 78800 (78765 rounded off).

This is what has been recommended by the Ashok Misra committee, it remains to be seen what MHRD will implement. MHRD has not made the report public; even the UGC Chauhan committee report has not been made public.

Anonymous said...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/education/pay-panel-suggests-two-entry-level-grades-for-centrally-funded-technical-institutes/articleshow/58249465.cms

Just saw the above media report on the recommendations, albeit brief. However, I don't underastand the motive behind changing the names of entry level designations (AP Grade II and Grade I from AP contractual and AP regular, respectively). How is it going to boost the faculty intake, as suggested in the report, considering there is virtually no change in career progression/salary. Need some enlightenment!

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram This is regarding PB4 for Assistant Profs. There are a few Asst. Prof in IITB who are on PB4 (with just 3-4 years of post PhD). Is this true in all IITs? I was under the impression, you need to be 6 years post PhD to be eligible for PB4.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous, I suppose, this PB-4 is for Assistant Profs having completed 3 years in AGP-8000/-; but AGP will be 9000/- with designation reaming Assistant Prof till achieve Associate Prof. through evaluation for 9500/-.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram have any changes related to terms and conditions of a.p on contract services been recommended by the committee.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
Many of the faculties in NIT, still they are in AGP 6000 or AGP7000 due to no direct/CAS recruitment for the past 6 years (due to CAS abolishment by MHRD as well as court cases). What will be fate of this faculty. They will be treated us grade I or grade II assistant professor as per 7th pay commission.
regards

Anonymous said...

Dear Prof. Sriram,

In continuation with the previous message, I would like to further clarify that there are quite a few Assistant Professors with AGPs of Rs. 7000 in NITs, but in regular post with more than 6 years of post-PhD experience or even more. It is because prior to 2014, AGP of Rs. 7000 was considered regular post after obtaining PhD degree. Ironically, they have already fulfilled other essential criteria for PB4 (or Associate Prof.) in terms of PhD supervision, sponsored projects and publication in reputed SCI journals in addition to regular teaching and administrative assignments. This stagnancy for the faculties in some of the NITs are attributed to the lack of interviews in the past three years or so, as my colleague has correctly pointed out. Therefore, judicious direction may please be provided by the committee to map the existing faculties based on both current AGP and overall performance and years of teaching/research experience. If it is solely based on the current AGP, many long serving regular faculties in NITs with AGP Rs. 7000 may eventually be mapped in Assistant Professor Grade-II i.e. in the entry level even after satisfying the criteria for PB4. In that case, their suffering will persist forever. It is a humble submission for logical assessment of the situation for the existing faculties before finalising the guideline in this regard.

Best regards

Anonymous said...

Anon above just curious about the reasons of "lack of interviews in the past three years or so"?

Anonymous said...

There are few reasons for the lack of interviews in some of NITs.

1. During implementation of 6th pay commission (2009), 3-tier faculty structure was prevalent in NIT system in which AGP of Rs. 7000 and higher was considered regular post. Suddenly, in 2014 there was notification from MHRD regarding replacement of then existing 3-tier structure with 4-tier structure like in IITs and IISc with specific criteria primarily based on performance. The detail of which can be found in the following link.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiQ-azBj7_TAhVGO48KHYwdDfAQFggnMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnitcouncil.org.in%2Fdata%2Fpdf%2Fnews%2FFour-Tier%2520Norms%2520and%2520Revised%2520RRs.pdf&usg=AFQjCNH7LsuSWWkH28d64jkbG2Ms39aTVg&sig2=Izj7qLSjxWie4w7UzKH5lw

There were a large number of anomalies which could not be sorted out in the Institute-level yet and consequently there were a sizable number of court cases in many NITs. This led to postponement of interviews in many NITs till court verdicts or clarification from MHRD were obtained.

2. In the last one year or so, it has been heard, interviews in all NITs have been halted due to non-availability of Visitor's (President) Nominee with the previous list dissolved by MHRD.

Therefore, NIT faculty community is eagerly awaiting the clarification of 3-tier/4-tier anomalies from MHRD before implementation of 7th pay commission. It is also hoped that Visitor's Nominee is finalised at the earliest so that interview process can be initiated.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
Whatever be the reason, it was not a fault of AGP6000/AGP7000 NIT faculty. Similarly as nicely pointed out, even many faculty member has post Ph.D. experience more than 6 years with required credentials. Hence many NIT faculty has eagerly waiting for 7th pay commission to solve the anomaly as well as it will make path for future promotion.
Regards

Anonymous said...

Based on the discussion, it looks like four tier/three tier direct AGP 8000 (Basic 30000) will not be same as AGP 8000 CAS based promotee in NIT system. Hence whether most of the faculty in NIT system in AGP 8000 based on CAS interview due to absence of direct recruitment for the past 5 years. Whether these faculty will be consider for AP grade I or grade II.
Best Regards

iitmsriram said...

@NIT anons, these issues were raised at the committee, but the committee (rightly, in my opinion) decided that these are not pay revision issues but recruitment and promotion issues that have to be handled either at the individual institution or at the NIT council.

Anonymous said...

@iitmsriram, Thank you for your response. However, our query was whether AGP 6000/7000 faculties in REGULAR POSITION (for 6-8 years) in NIT will be mapped to Assistant Professor Grade-II or Grade-I in 7th CPC.
If it is solely based on the current AGP only, many long serving regular faculties in NITs with AGP Rs. 6000/7000 may eventually be mapped in Assistant Professor Grade-II i.e. in the entry level even after satisfying the criteria for PB4. In that case, their suffering will persist forever. It is a humble submission for logical assessment of the situation for the existing faculties before finalising the guideline in this regard.

Thanks again.

Anonymous said...

As I understand this particular issue is handled by Prof Ashok Dey committee. He sought feedback and must have submitted the report.

Anonymous said...

Dear NIT people, It is a fault of your side. You people are not allowing to grow anyone in your system. The NIT professors do not want to conduct the interviews at NITs though the existing professors are enjoying with the powers by doing nothing in research and teaching. For ensuring this, you can check the academic profile of professors in NITs website. Even people are expecting to promote as a professor without having any SCI papers and research projects. Prof Ashok Dey committe was also proposing the worst recommendations to MHRD to promote the faculties at NIT without any SCI papers and projects. It is sure that the NIT standard again will be degraded and will not be in the race of at least NIRF rankings(forget about world ranking). Prof Ashok Dey committee recommendations have many loop holes for professors to play politics in promotions. Further, it again leads to lot of court cases for another decade. Because of the reason, Youngsters are left their jobs in some NITs to join in private/IITs/abroad. It must be sure that NIT ranking become very worse in future as private deemed universities will be ranked among these NITs.
Note: Only solution for this issues is that you can ask MHRD to conduct direct recruitment once in year with the MHRD guidelines of 2014.

Anonymous said...

Please share the information when MHRD will release the final order on the pay revision of the faculty CFTIs.

Anonymous said...

@anon: 'Dear Nit' ....I fully agreed. People are screaming in the system and situation is pathetic. Still someone discuss about senior, junior, hierarchy, etc in the blog. Crazy !!!!

Anonymous said...

Some of Prof. Ashok De committee suggestions for NITs:

*07 non-compounded increment will be given at the entry level post in AGP 6000/.For entry at 7000/- AGP pay should be fixed by giving 8 increments with AGP 6000/- and fix it in 7000/-.
** In all cases equivalency should be drawn as under:
•Worth 15 lakhs Sponsored Projects completed = One PhD Guided = Two Journalpapers in SCI/Scopus/Web of Science
•4Credit point =01Journal paper in SCI/Scopus/Web of science.
 One time Accelerated Promotion Scheme should be implemented w.e.f. 1.5.2013 till 30.4.2017 for the existing faculty member on roll on 30.4.13
At least one direct recruitment / year.
Extra teaching load as credit point in equivalence will be considered over and above the compulsory teaching experience acquired as EQ.
For existing faculty in a specific cadre as on date satisfying the EQ in corresponding cadre will be placed in 4 tier system through a Screening Committee duly constituted by BoG as one time measure and it will be effective notionally from the date of their eligibility. Any faculty who is satisfying EQ of Higher Cadre has to go through proper selection process.
For existing faculty members who completed their Ph.D. along with their normal teaching load; the post Ph. D. experience may not be insisted. The total minimum experience may be counted as prescribed in EQ. This will be only one time measure.
# Contribution to Institute Administration is measured as
•2 Credit/ Semesters = HOD, Dean, Chief Warden , Head (TPSW)
•1.0 Credit/Semester = Warden (2 yrscompleted), Associate Dean (2yrs completed)
•0.5 Credit = Chairman and Convener of different standing committee and special committee (Ex officio status will not be considered). Faculty in charges. (Each for one year duration) of different Units like admission, examination, Computer Center or IT Services, library, Departmental UG and PG coordinator setcon completion of term.
•Contribution to Institute Administration should be recommended by concerned Head/ Chairman and approved by the Director.
# Credit is defined as
•01hour theory class in UG/PG = 1 Credit
•03 hours lab class in UG/PG = 1.5 Credit
•For UG Projects completed: 0.5 Credits per project group upto a max of 02 credits per batch.
•For PG Projects completed: 01 Credit/ Student or group upto a max of 04 credits per batch.

Anonymous said...

It may not be the fault of only NITs Professors. The bad practices are actually propagated from the MHRD itself. There are many NIT Directors (appointed by MHRD), who do not even fulfill all the requirements of Associate Professors in four-tier flexible system but they are all enjoying the top post and naturally they always prefer the like minded people around them.This makes the entire NIT system even worse than the earlier REC system.I think MHRD should take the appropriate steps in this direction. Also a centralized NITs faculty recruitment board should be constituted so that every NITs faculty faces the same rules/norms for recruitment/promotions.

Anonymous said...

Why Prof. Giri and Prof. Madras not suggested the performance based incentive schemes in IITs/IISCs/NITs like western/US universities? Why they are only looking for Age and time bound promotions? Will time bound promotion help to improve the quality of Indian higher education and ranking system?
I presumed that the NIRF 2017 ranking will answered. However, looking for the great reply from profs though discussion is not relevant to this particular blog.